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wherestip 
États-Unis
Local time: 18:42
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| Good analysis | Apr 16, 2013 |
J.H. Wang wrote:
关于一句话的两种译法的比较与探讨
J.H.,
I couldn't agree more. That's exactly what I meant by saying Wu's translation of this sentence delved into the true essence of the original, while the other translation remained at a superficial level. Indeed there are many comprehension and rendering issues with the latter when you raise the bar and start to scrutinize it.
"To pass judgment" on someone could also be thought of as 给某人下定论， 或者对某人有看法、形成看法（通俗些）. Of course "to reserve judgment" means just the opposite.
A bore typically refers to someone who is only interested in talking about themselves or things that only interest them, without any consideration for the listener. In this context, "a veteran bore" refers to someone who specializes in burdening others with their own problems - 啰嗦专家. IMO, 老讨厌鬼 is a little too harsh. The narrator of the story, being the way he is, would not tend to feel as repugnant or critical to such personalities as to call them such a name. (Otherwise, he would be passing judgment, wouldn't he? - kind of contradicting himself )
Like I said, I think your analysis is very good. And I think your translation of the sentence is very good also.
[Edited at 2013-04-16 15:45 GMT]
| | | | ysun
États-Unis
Local time: 18:42
anglais vers chinois
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| 每千字100欧元的稿酬也不算过分 | Apr 16, 2013 |
Loise wrote:
如果付他每千字100欧元的稿酬……
……那么，他就不必日译万字了吧？
每千字60欧元都让人嫌少了，更何况这每千字60元还是人民币呢……干翻译这一行，真是字字皆幸苦……
依我看，对于文学翻译精品，每千字100欧元的稿酬也不算过分。文学作品是艺术品。艺术家的作品岂是可以用每小时多少钱来衡量的？他日译万字、甚至于日译两万字，一方面可能是因为 rate 太低，另一方面也可能是因为出版社催得太急。某些出版社为了抢占市场，就以快制胜。某些文学作品的版权已经过期失效，于是就出现了几家甚至十几家出版社翻译出版同一部小说的乱象。甚至有的出版社未经原作者授权，也翻译出版人家的作品，从而引起法律纠纷。如今很多人为了先富起来，就连法律道德都不顾了！
| | | | Phil Hand
Chine
Local time: 08:42
chinois vers anglais
我也喜欢J.H.的译句，不过还想对curious一词提出两个想法：
1）古怪有一定的贬义含量，而这句话中的curious应该是褒义的（至少是中性的）：说话人Nick Carraway说自己的保守性格有好的回报（了解一些非平凡的人），也有坏的回报（无法摆脱侈侈不休的人）。
2）因为他open up这些非平凡的人，我感觉他们是表面上很普通，需要耐心开导才露出非常的一面的人。
由此，我尝试用生词：
结果是，我倾向于保留所有意见，这种习性既引得不少人独特性灵的展露，也让我成了不少无聊的老讨厌鬼的受害者。
（另，nature就是性格，可数的）
| | | | ysun
États-Unis
Local time: 18:42
anglais vers chinois
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我在网上查了一下上面所讨论的译文：
http://www.xys.org/xys/ebooks/others/science/dajia7/fanyi6.txt
先不说别的，李继宏的如下这番话可真让人厌恶！讨论问题归讨论问题。为什么要使用这种攻击性、侮辱性的语言？本是同根生，相煎何太急？
《了不起的盖茨比》巫宁坤译本错误辨析
作者：李继宏
说明：关于翻译，有很多流传甚广的观念，比如老一辈的翻译家水平比现在
从事翻译的人高；再比如译得快等于译得差，译得慢等于译得好。为了小心求证，
我利用业余时间，校勘了一些所谓“名译”，比如萧乾、杨绛、梅绍武、王家湘
（我不知道这个人算不算著名翻译家，但很不幸，我最喜欢的两个外国作家纳博
科夫和库切都有书被她译得奇烂无比）、巫宁坤、王永年等之流的译著，发现如
果按照目前出版社通用的译稿标准（差错率千分之一），这些所谓“名译”竟然
没有一本是合格的。
下面列出的是《了不起的盖茨比》巫宁坤译本错误辨析。这个译本极其糟糕，
如果要求严格一些，可以说没有一句译对的。可悲的是，这样的翻译也被当成所
谓“名译”，上海译文出版社和南京译林出版社采用的均是这个译本。年前更有
新京报的SB记者为巫宁坤大肆吹嘘，摇旗呐喊，说“有些人只要翻译一篇文字，
就能当得起翻译家之称，比如巫宁坤。”
（http://news.thebeijingnews.com/0283/2005/1007/ [email protected]）我看巫宁坤再译100本书也当不了翻译家。
因为这个译本太烂，所以不可能从头到尾勘误。我随手6页，挑出其中较为
典型的错误，辨析如下。但要事先指出的是，这个译本决不止这6页有错，而这6
页也决不止就这点错误。
采用版本：译林出版社，2005年5月第2版，2005年8月第1次印刷。
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Jinhang Wang
Chine
Local time: 08:42
anglais vers chinois
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| nature 含义的探讨 | Apr 16, 2013 |
Phil Hand wrote:
我也喜欢J.H.的译句，不过还想对curious一词提出两个想法：
1）古怪有一定的贬义含量，而这句话中的curious应该是褒义的（至少是中性的）：说话人Nick Carraway说自己的保守性格有好的回报（了解一些非平凡的人），也有坏的回报（无法摆脱侈侈不休的人）。
2）因为他open up这些非平凡的人，我感觉他们是表面上很普通，需要耐心开导才露出非常的一面的人。
由此，我尝试用生词：
结果是，我倾向于保留所有意见，这种习性既引得不少人独特性灵的展露，也让我成了不少无聊的老讨厌鬼的受害者。
（另，nature就是性格，可数的）
Hi Phil，我很高兴看到你发表的对 nature 一词可数的意见。不过，你的根据是什么呢，因为根据词典上定义，我看到，凡是具有“性格”、”本性“之类含义的，都是不可数名词。以下定义是我原原本本地引自《新牛津英汉双解大词典 》词典：
■[mass noun]inborn or hereditary characteristics as an influence on or determinant of personality.
而且，把 curious natures 作为”古怪的人“理解能够与下文的 veteran bores 作为人来理解保持完美的一致。bores 也是一类人，是令人讨厌的人。
当然，从行文来讲，你的理解仍旧是说得通的。
[Edited at 2013-04-16 15:52 GMT]
[Edited at 2013-04-16 16:14 GMT]
| | | | Jinhang Wang
Chine
Local time: 08:42
anglais vers chinois
+ ...
Phil Hand wrote:
我也喜欢J.H.的译句，不过还想对curious一词提出两个想法：
1）古怪有一定的贬义含量，而这句话中的curious应该是褒义的（至少是中性的）：说话人Nick Carraway说自己的保守性格有好的回报（了解一些非平凡的人），也有坏的回报（无法摆脱侈侈不休的人）。
2）因为他open up这些非平凡的人，我感觉他们是表面上很普通，需要耐心开导才露出非常的一面的人。
由此，我尝试用生词：
结果是，我倾向于保留所有意见，这种习性既引得不少人独特性灵的展露，也让我成了不少无聊的老讨厌鬼的受害者。
（另，nature就是性格，可数的）
另外，我感觉作者用词似乎偶尔有喜欢用一些生僻含义的倾向；当然，这种感觉也可能是由于我的无知导致的。
比如，veteran 的用法、nature（如果作为”人“来讲的话）的用法。
| | | | wherestip
États-Unis
Local time: 18:42
chinois vers anglais
+ ...
ysun wrote:
先不说别的，李继宏的如下这番话可真让人厌恶！讨论问题归讨论问题。为什么要使用这种攻击性、侮辱性的语言？本是同根生，相煎何太急？
True. You don't see that kind of ill will too often in academic circles over here.
| | | | Phil Hand
Chine
Local time: 08:42
chinois vers anglais
nature 跟 bore 的确可以视为相对应的，所以把它理解为人也没错。这是一种很常见的metonymy/synecdoche (借代），用人的一部分来代表人：
They have some good heads working here.
I need a few quick hands today.
The old church has only 20 souls in it on a Sunday.
I'd rather have one good heart on my side than 10 clever tongues.
所以在含义层次上，nature=性格=人。
我的意思是说，从语�... See more nature 跟 bore 的确可以视为相对应的，所以把它理解为人也没错。这是一种很常见的metonymy/synecdoche (借代），用人的一部分来代表人：
They have some good heads working here.
I need a few quick hands today.
The old church has only 20 souls in it on a Sunday.
I'd rather have one good heart on my side than 10 clever tongues.
所以在含义层次上，nature=性格=人。
我的意思是说，从语法的角度来讲，nature就是性格的意思，也是可数的名词：http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nature?s=t 第八定义：the particular combination of qualities belonging to a person, animal, thing, or class by birth, origin, or constitution。
The particular combination of qualities beginning to a person 是可数的概念，比如：those two boys are noisy, but their natures aren't bad。
你在牛津字典里看到的定义是一种与大自然有关系的定义，如nature vs. nurture，人格是先天的还是天候的，这是一个更加抽象的，不可数的用法。
加一句：生僻，我觉得不至于，但总算是将近一百年前的书了，当时的美国富贵讲话习惯当然与我们不同。
[Edited at 2013-04-16 16:13 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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wherestip
États-Unis
Local time: 18:42
chinois vers anglais
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| 独特性格的人 instead of 古怪的人 | Apr 16, 2013 |
Phil brought up a very good point: on one hand the narrator benefited from being exposed to many curious characters, on the other he became a victim of more than a few nagging bores.
In consequence, I’m inclined to reserve all judgments, a
habit that has opened up many curious natures to me and also made me
the victim of not a few veteran bores.
| | | | Jinhang Wang
Chine
Local time: 08:42
anglais vers chinois
+ ...
| 关于 open up..... to 含义的探讨 | Apr 16, 2013 |
抱歉！我重新考虑了一下，感觉我前面对 open up..... to 含义的理解是不够准确的。
因为，当 open up..... to 表达”让人敞开心扉，谈论自己的心情、感受等“含义时，其语法结构是：
sb open up to sb else.
比如说，It's taken a few months, but Katy is ... See more 抱歉！我重新考虑了一下，感觉我前面对 open up..... to 含义的理解是不够准确的。
因为，当 open up..... to 表达”让人敞开心扉，谈论自己的心情、感受等“含义时，其语法结构是：
sb open up to sb else.
比如说，It's taken a few months, but Katy is now starting to open up to me.
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/open-up_1
另外，似乎还可以用 sb open up sth to sb else.
I hope that you'll open up about what you think to me. 这个句子是我根据一本词典上的句子改造的，我觉得应该没问题。
而在这本小说中，open up to的用法是：
sth open up sb/sth to sb
即 a habit that has opened up many curious natures to me
或者：The story of the hero opened up a new world to me.
因此，在这本小说中，其含义应该是：to create a new opportunity or possibility，参见：
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/open-up_1
就是”为....创造机会、可能性“的意思，这样来讲，a habit that has opened up many curious natures to me，的意思似乎是说：这种习性使我有机会/得以接触许多古怪的人，或者更进一步，这种习性使得许多古怪的人主动地跟我讲心里话（又回到原译上了），可见原译是非常审慎的。
[Edited at 2013-04-16 16:51 GMT]
[Edited at 2013-04-16 17:17 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jinhang Wang
Chine
Local time: 08:42
anglais vers chinois
+ ...
wherestip wrote:
Phil brought up a very good point: on one hand the narrator benefited from being exposed to many curious characters, on the other he became a victim of more than a few nagging bores.
In consequence, I’m inclined to reserve all judgments, a
habit that has opened up many curious natures to me and also made me
the victim of not a few veteran bores.
如果是这样的话，我想把 curious natures 的翻译改为”奇特的人“、"奇异的人"，如何？
或者，直接用原译中的”怪癖的人“。
[Edited at 2013-04-16 16:46 GMT]
| | | | Phil Hand
Chine
Local time: 08:42
chinois vers anglais
| Possible, but not likely | Apr 16, 2013 |
J.H. Wang wrote:
就是”为....创造机会、可能性“的意思，这样来讲，a habit that has opened up many curious natures to me，的意思似乎是说：这种习性使我有机会/得以接触许多古怪的人，
Excuse me for writing in English for speed:
That's a possible reading on a word-by-word basis, but given the logic of the passage, it's not the most natural interpretation. The point is that Nick is quiet. He doesn't talk, he lets others talk. So people say things to him that they wouldn't normally say. "Open up" here is naturally understood as "opening up a person", not opening up access to people.
And yeah, Steve is absolutely right about the Wu translation: from the samples we've seen it's a very accurate reading of the English, just not elegant or idiomatic in its Chinese expression.
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wherestip
États-Unis
Local time: 18:42
chinois vers anglais
+ ...
J.H. Wang wrote:
wherestip wrote:
Phil brought up a very good point: on one hand the narrator benefited from being exposed to many curious characters, on the other he became a victim of more than a few nagging bores.
如果是这样的话，我想把 curious natures 的翻译改为”奇特的人“、"奇异的人"，如何？
I think both of these are good. Phil's is good also.
IMO, when you truly understand the essence of an English sentence, rendering it into Chinese becomes academic. You know, you say tomato, I say tomahto type of thing.
I'm not saying it's trivial though, rather just the opposite. IMO, that's where an English to Chinese translator really has to focus his effort - 推敲文字.
| | | | Jinhang Wang
Chine
Local time: 08:42
anglais vers chinois
+ ...
| veteran bores 的定译：无聊的讨厌鬼 | Apr 16, 2013 |
综合考虑了大家的意见，觉得可以把”老讨厌鬼“改为”讨厌鬼“，因为”无聊“、”鬼“ 字已经体现了 veteran 的含义，似乎没有加”老“字的必要。而且，这样改后意思表达够充分，且行文更通顺流畅些。
或者，再简化一些，去掉”无聊“二字，仅仅保留”讨厌鬼“三个字，不知大家以为如何？
[Edited at 2013-04-16 17:28 GMT]
| | | | wherestip
États-Unis
Local time: 18:42
chinois vers anglais
+ ...
| Veteran Bore | Apr 16, 2013 |
J.H. Wang wrote:
综合考虑了大家的意见，觉得可以把”老讨厌鬼“改为”讨厌鬼“，因为”无聊“、”鬼“ 字已经体现了 veteran 的含义，似乎没有加”老“字的必要。而且，这样改后意思表达够充分，且行文更通顺流畅些。
或者，再简化一些，去掉”无聊“二字，仅仅保留”讨厌鬼“三个字，不知大家以为如何？
J.H.,
Let me put it this way: would I put up with a bore, or a veteran bore to make things worse? I'd say I would lend an ear if I had the time and patience. Would I put up with a 讨厌鬼？ No way, José.
People like this aren't necessarily bad. They just focus on themselves too much, and have little or no concern for their listener's time or interests.
I think to come up with a better Chinese term that is short and exact for this kind of person, you have to think along the lines of the original English definition. 无聊、讨厌 are both off, IMO. If it were me, I'd just sooner describe it(like Wu did); because I really couldn't think of a ready-made Chinese equivalent. IMO it might be a cultural thing - meaning the Chinese have more tolerance for people with such behavior, so much so that there's no existing conventional term or phrase for it. Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong about this.
There are multiple meanings of "bore" as a noun. But the following definition gives the exact meaning of a "bore" that applies in this situation. The narrator became a victim of some people taking advantage of his good nature by them constantly unloading on him with their problems or private matters, wasting a lot of his time ...
http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/bore_3
bore noun
2 [countable] someone who is boring, especially because they talk too much about themselves or about things that do not interest you:
He turned out to be a crashing bore (=used to emphasize that someone is very boring).
[Edited at 2013-04-17 00:37 GMT]
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