| Pages sur ce sujet: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | Off topic: 神六上天，国外尤其是海外华人反应如何？ Auteur du fil: Mark Xiang
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Wenjer Leuschel (X) 
Taïwan
Local time: 00:19
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Donglai Lou wrote:
Lu Zou wrote:
不管怎么说，这都是件值得高兴的好事，尽管因此花的钱也不少。
这确实是值得高兴的好事。而且才花了 9 亿人民币，与国庆天安门广场3千万的花坛，贪官动辙几个亿的赃款，外交部20多亿的大楼，苏州三十多万的车站相比，实在不算多。至少可抽的油水不多。
1980 年秋末在紐約飛往華盛頓的航班上，我遇到一位北京空間技術學院的高級工程師。他正要去華府參加學術會議。他的年紀大概與樂音相仿。我們談了些關於中國航太發展狀況。他說他們是幸運的一群人，在文革時期的動盪中還能專心做研究，沒有受到外界的影響。就花錢方面而言，那是值得的。此外，人的腦袋隨著科技的發展也有所改變，因為終究是要與世界各國的人接觸，很自然就會學習到正常的智識交流和社會運作方式。為增進國計民生所花去的錢都是小錢，奢華耗費的金額再小也是大錢。
| | | | redred
Chine
Local time: 00:19
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Mark Xiang wrote:
以现在这样的速度推进社会变革就已产生许多不良反应与后果，如果是以革命的剧烈方式来走这条改革之路，普罗大众所要经受的磨难恐怕远不只这些了。
MARK
革命是如何取得成功的？综观上下五千年,莫不是草根取得最后胜利。但是......引自张养浩,《山坡羊(潼关怀古)》：兴，百姓苦。亡，百姓苦。
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[Edited at 2005-10-24 00:49]
| | | | Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Taïwan
Local time: 00:19
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| Just forget all about those... | Oct 18, 2005 |
Lesley McLachlan wrote:
History...
Well, Lesley, I would just forget all about those "Somebody Done Somebody Wrong" songs. If people always remember those unpleasant history, they stay usually just as barbarious as before. When they keep in mind about how to treat others like themselves, they become civilized eventually.
[Edited at 2005-10-22 19:35]
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| Wrong perception. | Oct 18, 2005 |
As to whether China was ever imperialist or expansionist, there is a school of China historians now who consider the Ming Empire as an imperialist one, similar to the European imperialism of the Early-Modern period.
Maybe it's my observation only that many western people just want to change "history" (or distort?) a little in their favor so as to establish a conception that a stronger China CERTINALY will distablize the world. If those historians think Ming is like those western imperialists; that's ridiculous. Because the most well-known Zheng He's travel as far as probably Africa didn't bring those lands under terror and subjugation, but trade. Have you ever heard of "imperialists" as this?
We Chinese have never gone beyond as to seize foreign lands and kill "barbarous" people, or cheat them into unfair treaties and, at the same time, try to preach some religion to control people's mind.
The place of 'native peoples' in China is also an interesting one, I think, though I can't say I know much about it.I think the Han Chinese regard the Tibetans, the Oroqen, etc as inferior, and not as civilised as they are. Am I right?
[Edited at 2005-10-18 05:26]
As to this, I think Kevin has more right to tell you about this. Han people looking down upon Tibetans? Another pretext for imperialists to break China into small pieces and eat it up.
Personally, I have never heard of or learned about discrimination until my shoolbook told me that in America colored people were not treated well enough. It went that far that even churches were separated!
This discussion is toooooo political and this forum bans that. So I will stop here.
[Edited at 2005-10-18 06:04]
| | | | | History as reminders | Oct 18, 2005 |
Wenjer Leuschel wrote:
Lesley McLachlan wrote:
History...
Well, Lesley, I would just forget all about those "Somebody Done Somebody Wrong" songs. If people always remember those unpleasant history, they stay usually just as barbarian as before. When they keep in mind about how to treat others like themselves, they become civilized eventually.
History is history. But we can learn a lot from it. What we should not forget is a thief is most probably to be a thief again, until he proves to people otherwise and let people really trust him. It will take a long time.
| | | | Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Taïwan
Local time: 00:19
anglais vers chinois
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| Well, the problem is... | Oct 18, 2005 |
Jianjun Zhang wrote:
History is history. But we can learn a lot from it. What we should not forget is a thief is most probably to be a thief again, until he proves to people otherwise and let people really trust him. It will take a long time.
Well, the problem is when a stolen good becomes a part of the property of a thief, he would never admit that it was stolen. Not to say, his decendants would admit it.
[Edited at 2005-10-18 17:30]
| | | | Xuchun
Chine
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Kevin Yang
Local time: 08:19
Membre (2003)
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| It is always nice to get to know you better. | Oct 18, 2005 |
Lesley McLachlan wrote:
Kevin'应该知道和记住自己的历史'
I agree with this.It shouldn't be forgotten that a country like China will see history (especially the role of the imperial powers) differently from 'the West'. The West really doesn't know what the 'Treaty of Versailles' meant to the Chinese, in my view. It is a truism that history is written by the victors, but it can lead to their blindness to other views. I was very interested recently to see that the 'history curriculum' taught at a school in one of the Gulf States told a similar story about the imperial powers to the one in Chinese history textbooks.
As for the former colonies such as New Zealand, Canada, and perhaps South America, we have our own story relating to imperialism and colonisation. Most of us seem to be working through ongoing internal questions relating to relations between the settler populations and the native peoples.That's the priority.We are also coming to terms with an increasingly powerful China at present - don't worry about that. Do you think it will last?
As to whether China was ever imperialist or expansionist, there is a school of China historians now who consider the Ming Empire as an imperialist one, similar to the European imperialism of the Early-Modern period.
The place of 'native peoples' in China is also an interesting one, I think, though I can't say I know much about it.I think the Han Chinese regard the Tibetans, the Oroqen, etc as inferior, and not as civilised as they are. Am I right?
[Edited at 2005-10-18 05:26]
Lesley,
I hope you are aware that your discussion went too far from the topic that this folder is created. In order to give you an opportunity to express your disagreement, I unvetted you post. Thank you for giving me another opportunity to see where your resentment comes from. It is always nice to get to know you better.
First of all, thank you for telling me to remember well my own history. This is the first time that I was reminded by a foreigner by pushing my own words into my mouth. It is a bit out of your place, but I can take it. For the same token, I would like to tell you to do the same, even though there is not much for you to learn. As for me, the Chinese histories are too much for me to study. Personally, I am only interested in the Chinese modern history.
By reading your message above, I can see you put some deep thinking into this. Have you ever questioned yourself that your information about the Chinese history was based on the Western interpretations? Have you read a history book in Chinese or written by a Chinese author? I can see the Western interpretation made better sense to you. But, be aware that you are talking about the Chinese history. I would suggest that you should put the western views and the Chinese views side by side, you would be able to draw a more precise conclusion that is more true to the history.
You tried to cite hearsays that China once was an imperialist or expansionist. I do not buy that kind of theory if there is one. Can you show me one solid proof? All the historical records I have showing all the ocean voyages in the Ming Dynasty were for commercial trips and China did not have any colonies outside China or sent any troops to occupy any countires overseas, whereas the imperialists you are familiar with came into China by force, and conveniently took the treasures and historical artifacts from China and shipped back to each of their own countries, and even exhibit in their museums as trophies nowadays. By the way, are you a descendant of the British settlers? Just curious. Please do me a favor, if you found any Chinese historical treasures displaying in your museums, please be an advocator and help with the safe return of those lost artifacts to their home, China.
You wrote "We are also coming to terms with an increasingly powerful China at present - don't worry about that. Do you think it will last?" I found such things you said are odd. Why do you think I would worry about it? It sounds like it is against your will power. Are you aware that I am not a Chinese citizen? I am really not in a position to comment on or answer your question. Perhaps you should ask your Prime Minister Helen Clark when she was making that official apology to the Chinese immigrants in New Zealand. I am sure you will get a more satisfactory answer from her.
You also mentioned Tibetans and the Oroqen. It seems the Westerners always care very much about the Chinese minority issues. I do not ask a lot from you, just hope you are using the same set of standards you used to judge such issues in every other countries. As a Mongolian descendant myself, I think I am in a better position to talk about this. I believe what happened in China is very much like what happened in every other countries, including New Zealand. The constant power and/or territory struggles among the Han Chinese and the minority nationalities took place throughout the Chinese history, and continuing to this date. But in general it is stable and the people there finally figured out solutions to handle such problems once it arises. I whole heartily want to see the peaceful and stable unity among all the nationalities forever. I think the people there are doing a good job. I hope you feel the same.
Since you brought up this subject, I wonder if New Zealand is doing a better job in dealing with your natives. The interesting thing is that you mentioned Oroqen. I have an Oroqen friend. The Mongols and Oroqen are friends. My mother is a Han woman and married happily to my father, a truly handsome Mongolian stud. Don't you see the nice traits in me? Yes, we have problems, but we also have loads of good things to talk about. I wonder if you want to listen to stories from the happy campers like my family. I visited my Oroqen friend when I was doing my Expedition 2001. I took six American friends with me and also visited the outer Mongolia and Inner Mongolia. We had great time there. The local people were relaxed and happy people, and have more money than ever before in their life. I hope you can take off your sunglasses and visit Tibet or Mongolia, and mingle with the native people there yourself. It will not be too late to draw a conclusion based on your personal experience, rather than repeating someone else's interpretation or reports.
Cheers!
Kevin
[Edited at 2005-10-20 07:57]
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[Edited at 2005-10-24 00:50]
| | | | Kevin Yang
Local time: 08:19
Membre (2003)
anglais vers chinois
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| This is my last one in this regard. | Oct 18, 2005 |
Lesley McLachlan wrote:
Hi Kevin
By the way, are you a descendant of the British settlers? Just curious. Please do me a favor, if you found any Chinese historical treasures displaying in your museums, please be an advocator and help with the safe return of those lost artifacts to their home, China.
Yes, I am a descendant of the British settlers, and yes, we are fortunate enough to have Chinese artifacts in our Canterbury Museum, many donated by Rewi Alley (路易·艾黎).
You have made some assumptions. Perhaps I should have mentioned my comments were based on my readings of Chinese sources - I have written in the references above. The references to the inferior (封建,原始) social structures of the Tibetans and Oroqen came from 祖国 - this is 国内宣传 of course, and I was wrong to suggest it applied to all 汉族.实在太过分, you are right. I apologise to everyone for that.
I have compared NZ and Chinese secondary school history textbooks in the past, specifically on the Treaty of Versailles. And I have in fact visited Inner Mongolia, twice. My comments on Ming-Qing Empire and the European Early Modern period (1500-1800) arose from my contacts with a highly regarded Chinese history scholar doing original work in that field - hardly hearsay.
I hope this helps.
Lesley
Dear Lesley,
I am aware that in this thread of discussion, you have been like a snapper shooting at me your cold shots from time to time. Your blunt style and different perception did catch my attention. I enjoyed very much having this discussion with you. I do not mind at all to be challenged by you for learning purpose, well, I wish my interpretation of your intention is correct. You were very kind to make an apology. I apologize to you, too, if there was anything I said hurt your feeling. I hate to carry this discussion further due to the rules I have been trying to reinforce in this Forum. This is my last one in this regard.
I am not sure if you and I are in the same age group, I remember well that in a few years ago, I identified you as a lady, and you got very offended and protested it. From then on, I learned that you were different. But, please keep in mind, I appreciate very much your enthusiasm in learning Chinese language and try to understand China. I praised you openly a number of times in this Forum. I am certain that your life experience and knowledge enable you to develop a mature judgment that should be independent and cannot be swung easily by anybody. Indeed, it is hurtful to be told for being biased. I think the worst situation is that one who has the bias is not at all aware of it. Please be sure to keep an open mind. I will also keep an open mind to hear any new findings, particularly those that are controversial, because my knowledge is built on the information presently available. Please be generous and share with me if you have anything I do not know. I will feel rewarded if I can learn something new from you.
Rewi Alley, what a great name! I respect him highly. My respect rises as soon as I see that name. He had been a great New Zealand friend of the Chinese people during the hardest years. His understanding about China and the Chinese people is far better than mine. His contributions will be always remembered by the Chinese people. He wrote many books in English, from which the Westerners had an opportunity to learn about China and the Chinese people from a pair of Western eyes. In short, he helped China to present the Chinese people's side of the story in a timely manner. I hope he has been one of your role models. By the way, when I said previously to you about returning the stolen Chinese artifacts, I meant those were robbed and stolen during the foreign invasions. Those pieces donated by Mr. Rewi Alley are for educational purpose. Please keep them well and let those people who are interested in Chinese culture to learn the creativity of the Chinese people.
I noticed you mentioned 2-3 times about the Treaty of Versailles. That is a very good start. I am very impressed. As a Chinese language learner yourself, I suggest you should also study "Yalta Agreement" (1945) signed secretly by Franklin Roosevelt, Winston Churchill and Joseph Stalin. You will understand how Mongolia was split into two, and how other Chinese territories were traded as bargain chips without the participation or awareness of the Chinese people. If you have more time to spare, please read "Treaty of Shimonoseki." If you really believe or still have the concern that China once was and would possibly be an imperialist or expansionist, then you might need to re-define your definitions. I would not be surprised if the definitions get revised. As you once told me the history is written by victors. For the same token, the game rules are also written by victors. I often noticed there are many games with the rules designed by others, and when the Chinese plays the same game and beats the rest, someone will want to change the rules, or use a different standard to interpret the result. Isn't it interesting?
Can you tell me how long you have been learning Chinese language? I wonder if you mind to share with me your impression of China. It must be hard for you if you are leaning something about a country that you have doubt or fear, or even resentment. Let me share with you my impression of China. It is like a huge wealthy family. Strict family rules and values were carried out by generations and they live their own life for thousands of years. It seemed that the Family problems have never stopped for a moment, and one brother even moved out and has been living separately. The whole family thought they could be prosperous and survived by being kind to each other and peaceful with their neighbors. But the foreigners came and loved everything in the house. In order to make the family need the foreign products or service, the opium was freely introduced. Later, the foreigners decided to stay in the courtyard and setup their own colonies in the city. Any Chinese had to show pass or permit to access those areas, watching the foreign soldiers riding horses and running through the busy commercial streets and kicking the vegetable stands upside down. The family business ran down and became poor rapidly. The mother was raped and sisters were slaughtered by the invaders. Properties and lands were taken away by neighbors. Finally the brothers united and kicked out all the invaders, robbers and rapers. Now, those who were driven out are still dreaming the old glorious days, but are not able to repeat the old tricks again, except anxiously observing, stalking and speculating from outside and urging it to reform or change into something that the West can identify, and helplessly watching this nice family healing up and becoming wealthy again.
You can choose to be stuck-up and refuse to communicate with them on equal footings. You also can choose to work with them in respect and pilot them into the chartered waters. It is simply amuzing for me to see the outsiders always enjoy telling the Chinese how to live their life. Do you really believe your set of problems is better than what the Chinese got already in their plates? As a Chinese culture worshiper myself, I would say to those who like to play teachers or validators, or culture exporters, that please back off and go to fix the problems in your own homes before telling the Chinese people what to do. Those Chinese people survived for many thousands years. They will do just fine as they are.
For some strange reasons, the people outside grow concerns and worry this family will be too strong and eventually make their revenges. I wonder sometimes why someone would take that raper home and feel safe enough to sleep with or be friend with, but he/she would think the woman who clearly was the victim of the rape crime to be a threat. I think I explained to you my perspective. I hope you have an explanation for all the grudges came from outside. Based on my knowledge, I can assure you the Chinese people are not revengeful. Please open your arms to embrace them. Don't you find me to be a nice and well-balanced man? The Chinese people are kind of people who like to only mind their own business. Imagining, there are 1.3 billion mouths to feed. That's a full-time job right there. If in the morning you look out into the horizon and see there is a Sampan in the sea, that is a harmless Chinese fisherman trying to catch something to feed his whole family. Trust me, colonization is not one of the things on his mind.
Cheers!
Kevin
[Edited at 2005-10-21 17:53]
| | | | Xu Dongjun
Chine
Local time: 00:19
Membre (2006)
anglais vers chinois
神六的上天和宇航员的安全返回还是值得骄傲的，毕竟在这个大家都拥有飞机导弹的年代，太空威慑似乎还是蛮重要的...可能在技术上，正如Shang所说，没有媒体吹的什么突破，但是不管怎么说，花了9亿成就载人航天也算一桩美事了 呵呵
Kevin，没想到你还是半个镇江人,哈哈，正好我也是半个镇江人，不过此半个非彼半个^_^我老家是绍兴的，在镇江待了10来年...哪天你... See more 神六的上天和宇航员的安全返回还是值得骄傲的，毕竟在这个大家都拥有飞机导弹的年代，太空威慑似乎还是蛮重要的...可能在技术上，正如Shang所说，没有媒体吹的什么突破，但是不管怎么说，花了9亿成就载人航天也算一桩美事了 呵呵
Kevin，没想到你还是半个镇江人,哈哈，正好我也是半个镇江人，不过此半个非彼半个^_^我老家是绍兴的，在镇江待了10来年...哪天你到了镇江，我做东：-）
Kevin Yang wrote:
Mark Xiang wrote:
Kevin，
内蒙古大草原太令人向往了，什么时候去逛逛。
为您的家乡做广告啦，开心吧？
HA
Mark
Mark, Stonejohn,
你们好！
开心，开心！在国外，很少听到内蒙的消息，那里太沉寂了。其实我是在呼和浩特长大的，父亲是纯种东北蒙古人，母亲是江苏镇江人。我属于“改良品种”，身上的确具备蒙汉两个民族的优良基因。我去草原只是为了旅游，牧民给我选的马是老马，看来在我身上牧人的生存技能已经完全退化了，但是游荡天涯的游牧习性还是继承了下来。
Kevin [Edited at 2005-10-16 06:20] ▲ Collapse
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Kevin Yang
Local time: 08:19
Membre (2003)
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| 真高兴认识一位镇江老乡！ | Oct 19, 2005 |
stonejohn wrote:
神六的上天和宇航员的安全返回还是值得骄傲的，毕竟在这个大家都拥有飞机导弹的年代，太空威慑似乎还是蛮重要的...可能在技术上，正如Shang所说，没有媒体吹的什么突破，但是不管怎么说，花了9亿成就载人航天也算一桩美事了 呵呵
Kevin，没想到你还是半个镇江人,哈哈，正好我也是半个镇江人，不过此半个非彼半个^_^我老家是绍兴的，在镇江待了10来年...哪天你到了镇江，我做东：-）
stonejohn,
你好！真高兴认识一位镇江老乡！
我小时候去过镇江多次，童年和我外公外婆一起居住的日子至今难以忘怀。那时也就是七、八岁，就去过金山寺，就是《白蛇传》中说的“水漫金山寺”的地方，那里香烟缭绕，木鱼叮咚，香客人流不断。我还和别的小朋友围坐在北固山甘露寺的石桌旁听老人讲“刘备招亲”的故事。后来长大了还知道镇江还是鸦片战争和八国联军入侵时中国人民英勇抗击外寇的重要战场。那里的人有北方人的豪爽性格，也有江南文化陶冶出来的文化气息。
镇江在我的梦中有湿漉漉的鹅卵石街巷，青砖吊角民房，就是《雨巷》的那个意境。农人挑着担子在巷子头上卖新鲜的蔬菜，木盆里有活鱼游水。清晨出来买菜的妇女们胳膊上都挎着竹篮子，说活的嗓门挺高......还有一个令我印象深刻的景观就是，清晨家家的妇人忙着出来刷马桶，动作和声音还挺有节奏和乐感的。
我的大哥在镇江工作，他在电话里告诉我说，那个旧镇江基本不见了，现在都是新楼房。我听了后，一种感伤油然而生。
你给我发一个电子邮件，告诉我你的联系办法。如果以后我去镇江，我一定会与你联系。我一听到“镇江肴肉”，我的口水就来了。我在美国，可以买到镇江恒顺酱醋厂出品的“镇江香醋”。
Kevin
[Edited at 2005-10-19 06:33]
| | | | Kevin Yang
Local time: 08:19
Membre (2003)
anglais vers chinois
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| Chinanaut, Taikonaut, Yuhangyuan and Hangtianyuan... | Oct 21, 2005 |
Mark,
There are some new words have been or just about to be introduced into English:
Chinanaut, Taikonaut, Yuhangyuan and Hangtianyuan...
For more, please read:
http://news.wenxuecity.com/BBSView.php?SubID=news&MsgID=93824
"美国《新科学家》杂志也在自己网站上的宇航频道针对神六进行了�... See more Mark,
There are some new words have been or just about to be introduced into English:
Chinanaut, Taikonaut, Yuhangyuan and Hangtianyuan...
For more, please read:
http://news.wenxuecity.com/BBSView.php?SubID=news&MsgID=93824
"美国《新科学家》杂志也在自己网站上的宇航频道针对神六进行了一次民意调查，题目很有意思，主题是"你认为中国太空人应该如何称呼?"，其中12% 的人赞同应该称为汉语的Yuhangyuan(宇航员，有31%的人则赞同用汉语的太空加上希腊语的水手组合为Taikonaut(太空人，还有一个选择则叫幸运，选择这一项的人竟高达58%。"
Kevin
[Edited at 2005-10-21 21:29] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Angus Woo
Local time: 00:19
chinois vers anglais
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| The mentors are lecturing the Chinese to safeguard their “own” interest | Oct 22, 2005 |
Kevin Yang wrote:
You can choose to be stuck-up and refuse to communicate with them on equal footings. You also can choose to work with them in respect and pilot them into the chartered waters. It is simply amuzing for me to see the outsiders always enjoy telling the Chinese how to live their life. Do you really believe your set of problems is better than what the Chinese got already in their plates? As a Chinese culture worshiper myself, I would say to those who like to play teachers or validators, or culture exporters, that please back off and go to fix the problems in your own homes before telling the Chinese people what to do. Those Chinese people survived for many thousands years. They will do just fine as they are.
For some strange reasons, the people outside grow concerns and worry this family will be too strong and eventually make their revenges. I wonder sometimes why someone would take that raper home and feel safe enough to sleep with or be friend with, but he/she would think the woman who clearly was the victim of the rape crime to be a threat. I think I explained to you my perspective. I hope you have an explanation for all the grudges came from outside. Based on my knowledge, I can assure you the Chinese people are not revengeful. Please open your arms to embrace them. Don't you find me to be a nice and well-balanced man? The Chinese people are kind of people who like to only mind their own business. Imagining, there are 1.3 billion mouths to feed. That's a full-time job right there. If in the morning you look out into the horizon and see there is a Sampan in the sea, that is a harmless Chinese fisherman trying to catch something to feed his whole family. Trust me, colonization is not one of the things on his mind.
Cheers!
Kevin
[Edited at 2005-10-21 17:53]
I would say that Kevin simply has said what most Chinese have in their mind. What makes I and Kevin different is the perception on the rationale of why there are so many, virtually countless teachers, mentors of all sorts are telling Chinese people how they should live their life, and with a burning desire. Surely there is reason for that.
The world is getting smaller and smaller, and painstakingly China is getting stronger and stronger. This former employee or menial (I just hate to use the expression “the inferior chink”) considered by some is becoming a business partner or worse even a family member. All the existing bosses naturally would react very cautiously. Of course they would like very much to lecture this new member. If they can’t stop the Chinese from rising, then at least “house-train” them, for the little village is already occupied.
The mentors are lecturing the Chinese to safeguard their “own” interest which of course is understandable.
[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2005-10-22 18:26]
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