Rates offered by those posting jobs Auteur du fil: María T. Vargas
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María T. Vargas 
Espagne
Local time: 13:18
anglais vers espagnol
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In memoriam
Dear all,
Please note I write this in English in deference to Henry and any other decision marker at proZ.
First of all, excuse me if the matter has been dealt with previously.
I understand proZ wants to keep its position as Nr. 1 translations site and makes all kind of offers, incorporates new designs, has special attentions with Platinum members (like myself), etc. This is very good promotional and marketing work and I welcome it.
But I'd like to raise the ma... See more Dear all,
Please note I write this in English in deference to Henry and any other decision marker at proZ.
First of all, excuse me if the matter has been dealt with previously.
I understand proZ wants to keep its position as Nr. 1 translations site and makes all kind of offers, incorporates new designs, has special attentions with Platinum members (like myself), etc. This is very good promotional and marketing work and I welcome it.
But I'd like to raise the matter of posting offering rates which are practically an insult not only to the profession but to proZ. How can it be the Nr. 1 site when it accepts offers of even less than US $0.01 or close o it, by word? I'm under the impression that being Nr. 1 means not only having first-rate translators available, but attracting decent clients, not exploiters.
I believe there should be a minimum rate under which no posting would be accepted. After all, we, the translators, have been forced to have minimum rates too.
I can very well understand the plight of our colleagues in many Latin American countries, which forces them to accept extremely low rates. It should be proZ's duty to look after the quality of the site by not accepting offers which convert translators into sweatshop workers!
If proZ big bosses are upset with my suggestion, I'm sorry but some of the recent offers have gone too far (although not in price, unfortunately)!
Best regards to all,
Pampi ▲ Collapse
| | | | José Luis Villanueva-Senchuk (X)
Argentine
Local time: 09:18
anglais vers espagnol
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| Hola Pampita... | Jul 4, 2003 |
I believe there should be a minimum rate under which no posting would be accepted.
Dear María,
Correct me if I am wrong, but ProZ.com (an enterprise based in the US) cannot fix any price floor. That practice goes against US laws.
What I think we, translators, can do is:
1. not to accept/bid those offers -- If you see an outsourcer offering 0.01 USD and you see 40 bids in less than 45 minutes...that is not ProZ's fault.
2. declare rates in our profiles (visible or not, that is another issue) -- If we all declare good rates the whole average of the language combination goes up. If there are no 0.01 rates declared , no offers will "pass" the filtre.
3. Use ProZ.com to network with other colleagues. Use it as a showcase (good answers in KudoZ, professional profile page, Fora participation, helping those who need help at the start...).
My number of bids: over 100
Number of jobs/clients from those bids: 6. Now, 2/5 are now solid and current customers. Another 2 bids were interpreting jobs only at fair market price. The remaining 2 were a one-time deal (the client said it from the start).
Number of jobs via ProZ.com (fellow members, agency headhunters, referrals...) MUCHOS
HugZ,
JL
[Edited at 2003-07-04 17:05]
| | | | Ralf Lemster
Allemagne
Local time: 13:18
anglais vers allemand
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| Concerned, not upset - and certainly not with your posting | Jul 4, 2003 |
Hi María,
Thanks for posting in English. Let me assure you that jobs posted at extremely low prices are a concern to ProZ.com moderators as well as to site staff. Setting a minimum rate is not an option, however - Pepelu explained the principal reason why, but there are also practical considerations: who is to say what is an acceptable rate, and who are we to prevent someone from accepting work at a price that is acceptable to him/her?
A number of moderators has addressed the... See more Hi María,
Thanks for posting in English. Let me assure you that jobs posted at extremely low prices are a concern to ProZ.com moderators as well as to site staff. Setting a minimum rate is not an option, however - Pepelu explained the principal reason why, but there are also practical considerations: who is to say what is an acceptable rate, and who are we to prevent someone from accepting work at a price that is acceptable to him/her?
A number of moderators has addressed the Jobs Area overall (low-priced offers are one of the issues, but there are others), and is working on a new structure. Our first priority was the Blue Board, and addressing non-paying outsourcers: you may have noted that ProZ.com moderators have taken action against non-payers - at the same time, we're working hard to enhance and improve the data available there. Being able to edit the link between a job and a BB entry (even if the outsourcer deliberately avoids posting under a profile) is one of the results of this process.
The next steps? Can't give you too many details yet (mostly because we're still discussing them), but what we're up to is a market segment with certain requirements for both outsourcers and service providers (including verified IDs and the acceptance of a code of conduct). Not a magic wand creating decent pricing, but certainly a few steps forward toward a more reliable marketplace.
Finally, remember that these things take time - not just because of the programming involved, but also because all those involved outside ProZ.com staff run their own businesses. Thanks for your patience.
Best regards, Ralf Lemster
(Jobs Area Coordinator) ▲ Collapse
| | | | two2tango
Argentine
Local time: 09:18
Membre
anglais vers espagnol
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Since this thread is of general interest and written in English, I have moved it from the Spanish forum to this Jobs forum.
Enrique
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| Arming the translator with information | Jul 5, 2003 |
Ralf Lemster wrote:
.... but what we're up to is a market segment with certain requirements for both outsourcers and service providers (including verified IDs and the acceptance of a code of conduct). Not a magic wand creating decent pricing, but certainly a few steps forward toward a more reliable marketplace.
There should be more information right where each single job is posted. Such information should include the average price per word for a particular language pair. I am sure there are statistical data. Then let the outsourcer indicate the degree of difficulty for the translation and the required qualifications (in a separate, prominent spot at the job posting URL in large print).
That would make it much more difficult to white-wash a ridiculous job offer. Definite numbers in black and white - or better red and white - would indicate that the job offer is substandard.
It would indicate the raw facts, for example: Just another lunatic who wants a fully trained engineer translate his text for two bits per word - Click!
Just a suggestion.
Ursula
I do not believe that you can eliminate cheats and liars through programming and codes of conduct.
| | | | Ralf Lemster
Allemagne
Local time: 13:18
anglais vers allemand
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There should be more information right where each single job is posted. Such information should include the average price per word for a particular language pair. I am sure there are statistical data. Then let the outsourcer indicate the degree of difficulty for the translation and the required qualifications (in a separate, prominent spot at the job posting URL in large print).
That would make it much more difficult to white-wash a ridiculous job offer. Definite numbers in black and white - or better red and white - would indicate that the job offer is substandard.
This is one of the issues we have looked at, admittedly not yet in as much detail. Good suggestion!
I do not believe that you can eliminate cheats and liars through programming and codes of conduct.
Of course not, but you can make improper dealings more difficult and transparent.
Best regards, Ralf
| | | | Özden Arıkan
Allemagne
Local time: 13:18
anglais vers turc
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| I am concerned, too | Jul 25, 2003 |
Especially upon seeing job postings such as this one which is urgent AND the client is very meticulous! (the 3 cents mentioned, btw, are $US cents, not €).
I wholeheartedly agree with all the views put forward here in good faith, and also understand that formulating and implementing such measures would take time. My greatest concern, however, is that P... See more Especially upon seeing job postings such as this one which is urgent AND the client is very meticulous! (the 3 cents mentioned, btw, are $US cents, not €).
I wholeheartedly agree with all the views put forward here in good faith, and also understand that formulating and implementing such measures would take time. My greatest concern, however, is that Proz site is increasingly taking on the image of a cheap labor market with such outrageous job postings. And both the site staff and translators, or let's say members, have responsibilities here. The points made by José Luis are spot on, and I believe that as a greater number of colleagues enter rates and even show them on their profile pages, those of us who put bids for 0.01-0.02 will begin to think about it, at the very least. (I have to add though that I'm yet two-minded about showing rates on the profile, I just don't like the idea, well, this is certainly a personal thing, but now I'm beginning to think that showing rates might exert sort of pressure and/or raise consciousness among those who keep bidding for these outrageous postings. But entering them is crucial of course, show or not.)
Also, I trust that ways will be found soon to improve the job-posting system. I think too much room is left for the outsourcers to act rather arbitrarily. Ursula is right at demanding better organized job-posting procedures. Some postings give almost no info about the job but the language pairs. Just as we cannot submit our Kudoz answers as long as we haven't entered a confidence level, an explanation and so forth, the outsourcer should not be able to complete posting before supplying info on the job particulars. And legal and market considerations aside, I believe ways can be found to handle this problem of outrageous pricings. I find this discussion worth taking a peek for some improvement suggestions. It's true that those who intend to cheat or abuse will find a way to do that, this is so in every area of our lives. But again this makes it indefinitely important to educate and/or pressure both sides of the market (demand and supply sides, I mean) towards more professional behavior.
All the best...
Ah! And a suggestion: Isn't it possible to indicate the time zone on job postings that limit bidding to Platinum members for a certain period of time. It reads, "for Platinum only until 2.30 PM" for instance. In this case, looking at my watch doesn't help me as long as I don't know the time zone
[Edited at 2003-07-25 15:33]
[Edited at 2003-07-25 15:35]
My posting must have been cursed by 3 cents, first I accidentally submitted it before it was complete, and then the links didnt't work. For those interested, the link of the job posting is
http://www.proz.com/job/39663
and more important, the link of the posting that includes suggestions for improvement in the jobs system is
http://www.proz.com/topic/12809
Best wishes to all, again...
[Edited at 2003-07-25 15:42] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Intergraf
Local time: 06:18
espagnol vers anglais
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| No price fixing - slight disagreement from the peanut gallery. | Aug 1, 2003 |
José Luis Villanueva-Senchuk wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, but ProZ.com (an enterprise based in the US) cannot fix any price floor. That practice goes against US laws.
As far as I know, it cannot fix any price, period. Yet it does: when you input your rates, your maximum can only be a certain percentage above your minimum...
Don't know about you, but my hourly rates depend on the type of language-related work involved, and they range from about $30 for miscellaneous office work --like digging through my archives to get last year's source and/or target doc which the client cannot find and emailing or faxing it to him-- to around $200 per hour for voice overs.
The constraints in place right now make it impossible to show the true range of fees, and one ends up lopping off either the low or high end of the scale --or both!
Terry
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Intergraf
Local time: 06:18
espagnol vers anglais
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| More info, yes! And let's rate those offers. | Aug 1, 2003 |
Ursula Peter-Czichi wrote:
There should be more information right where each single job is posted. Such information should include the average price per word for a particular language pair. [snip] Then let the outsourcer indicate the degree of difficulty for the translation and the required qualifications (in a separate, prominent spot at the job posting URL in large print).
[snip] Definite numbers in black and white - or better red and white - would indicate that the job offer is substandard.
And
Ralf Lemster wrote:
This is one of the issues we have looked at, admittedly not yet in as much detail. Good suggestion!
I'd like to see an area where translators who look at the job (and all the information Ursula suggested posting with that job) can rate it and leave a brief comment, much like we do with KudoZ.
And, following up with Ursula's idea about the red numbers, have them reflect the average rating the job has received --and in a prominent place, as is done in the Blue Board.
T.
OK, maybe now those dratted quotes will work right...
[Edited at 2003-08-01 22:18]
[Edited at 2003-08-01 22:21]
| | | | | 3 or 4 clients through Proz.com | Aug 2, 2003 |
Hi all,
It's now about a year since I subscribed as a Platinum member and think Proz is really the BEST Internet venues for translators. However, there is the far-reaching rates debate going on time and again; I think such continuous arguing over rates and shabby outsourcers does indicate clearly, IMHO, that at fault are we translators, who accept to trade years of studying, toiling and continouus investment in tools (vocabularies, CAT tool, travels, etc.) and education for j... See more Hi all,
It's now about a year since I subscribed as a Platinum member and think Proz is really the BEST Internet venues for translators. However, there is the far-reaching rates debate going on time and again; I think such continuous arguing over rates and shabby outsourcers does indicate clearly, IMHO, that at fault are we translators, who accept to trade years of studying, toiling and continouus investment in tools (vocabularies, CAT tool, travels, etc.) and education for just peanuts!!! THAT'S A SHAME!!!
I only got 3 or 4 jobs from Proz's job system; and got paid pretty good rates for them all: just what I asked!!! I just rejected with professional contempt the paultry offers and went ahead, +++SELCTING+++ customers!
A point in case.
Just yesterday, I received, from one of my long-term-relashionship agency, a file to proofread; I have been asked to evaluate it, as well! It was a translation in the medical field, for one of the most renowed multinational pharamceutical giant on which behalf I have translated a considerable number of documents, with the client's best satisfaction.
Well, the translation they proposed me to proofread and evaluate was of the worst quality I had ever seen: wrong technical terminology, poorest style, shabby phrasing addedd up to a clearly evident lack of confidence and basic professional skills from the translator.
As it happens, I asked who had done the translation; they come up saying they had contracted the job, translation from English into Italian to a very cheap Indian translator.
As a result, the client had to pay the cheap indian translator, suffer a terrific delay in turnarond time and, last but not least, had to pay my proofreading job and had to contract me for a new translation, from scratch, of the same file, that, of course, they had to pay at MY OWN RATES
I think this was a good lesson for the outsorcers to learn the hard way!
If you think my attitude is uncompromising, you probably are right! But, I am not willing to trade horses! And I only work with people that do value my committment and skills!
Cheers,
FFB ▲ Collapse
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