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emballage floche
dépaysannisation
May 14, 2013 19:17
11 yrs ago
12 viewers *
français term

paysans (in contrast to ouvriers)

français vers anglais Sciences sociales Histoire article on the history of the PCF
I'm aware that 'paysan' has come up before but I'm not sure if the suggestions in the glossary fit this particular context, which is the consistent use of 'paysans', in contrast to 'ouvriers' (industrial or urban workers) in an article which examines the history of the French Communist Party (PCF). I'm torn between 'farmers' and 'peasants'. I know that 'peasant' is rather pejorative in English, but in French 'paysan' isn't necessarily so. Another complication is that 'peasant' has strong connotations of poverty in English, whereas in French 'paysans' can be anything but 'poor'...although they can still be perceived as provincial, unrefined etc....There is also the question of historical context and periods. Most of English-language works that I've consulted where 'peasant' is the preferred term are studies of the French or Russian revolutions, the English Peasant Revolt of the Middle Ages and so on...while books which deal with more recent periods tend to use 'farmers'. This particular article mainly focuses on 20th century France (with a brief mention of the 1890s). In other words, is it really appropriate to talk about 'peasants' in 1980s France? I'm thinking of using qualifying adjectives as in 'farm workers' vs 'industrial workers' but this seems clumsy since the French sources merely uses 'paysans' and 'ouvriers' throughout, and the 'paysans' could well be 'farm owners' too.
Proposed translations (anglais)
4 +5 farmers
4 +2 farm workers
3 +2 the peasantry
3 +2 peasant farmers
4 smallholders
3 agricultural workers/rural workers
3 peasants
5 -3 land owners
References
Some dictionary defs of peasant

Discussion

Wolf Draeger May 21, 2013:
@ BD/Tony Yes, that's why I suggested giving the word labourer a new meaning to fit the apparent juxtaposition of paysan/ouvrier. But after seeing Asker's related question on dépaysannisation, I agree that wouldn't work, and think Tony's (or gallagy's/BD's) smallholders/peasant-farmers is best here.
Tony M May 21, 2013:
@ Wolf I agree with BDF's comment, and in addition, in many contexts, 'labourer' would in fact be the translation of 'ouvrier'.
B D Finch May 21, 2013:
@Wolf A labourer is an unskilled worker engaged in heavy, physical work. That really does not fit this context. A paysan would probably be most offended to be called a labourer.
Wolf Draeger May 21, 2013:
Some refs Some refs on farm structures in France and the apparent prevalence of smallholdings.

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index....
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index....
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index....
http://www.frenchfoodintheus.org/spip.php?article2984

http://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/farming-in-fr...
Wolf Draeger May 21, 2013:
Just a thought Perhaps one could deliberately restrict the meaning of 'labourer' in this context to refer only to people working on farms, whether they own/rent their land or not, and then contrast labourer to worker in the same way as the French does paysan and ouvrier.
B D Finch May 16, 2013:
Marx and Lenin I am afraid that the discussion wasn't displaying when I posted my answer. There are important differences between Marx's and Lenin's use of the term "paysans" or "peasants" and the use of the term "paysans" in relation to modern France. I believe that Marx's comment about organising peasants being equivalent to putting potatoes in a sack: the end result being just a sack of potatoes, doesn't really apply to paysans in modern France. I know several paysans who are well educated and have made a conscious, political choice to be paysans. In some cases they are continuing in their parents' occupation, in others they are first-generations of paysans. The French Confédération paysanne is quite militant in ways that relate to national and international political issues, not just farming.
jmleger May 15, 2013:
Farmer, I dont think so My farmer came of age at the end of the war in the Pas-de-Calais. As the oldest child of a large family, he was expected to go to work right after the certificat d'études and help with the upkeep of the rest of the brood. Since this was a mostly agricultural region he went to work for a local farmer and landowner as a farmworker/farmhand. He was part of the agricultural proletariat which does not own its means of production. The farmer, on the other hand, owned the farm, the land, the tools, the livestock... So I don't think the word "farmer" does justice to the meaning here. For the amateurs there is a famous sketch by Fernand Reynaud where he keeps repeating " Ça eut payé", and "J'suis qu'un pauvre paysan" while isting his impressive possessions. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3io2m_le-paysan_news#.UZOx...
Francis Marche May 15, 2013:
To Asker In the sample text "la figure du paysan" functions as a collective, a class (in Marxist terminology). One very important point is that in this context, the "peasant" is not waged but operates in a feudal context where one belongs to one's land or one land-owner. The whole point of being "un paysan" in France is be belong to "un pays", "un terroir". The waged worker (whether he/she is a farm worker or industrial worker), by definition does not belong to any master or any place in particular -- he is mobile and unattached; whilst "le paysan" is not. Well into the second half of last century, "un paysan" en France was someone attached, with a due sense of belonging, to a land, "un pays". I believe it was the same in England; "peasant", "paysans" are derogatory terms in both cultures because of the inherent contempt industrial, mobile and "free" workers would feel for the "immobile", land-bound "peasant" in his vestigial system of feudal bondage. I suggest "peasantry" to reflect this collective status conveyed by the term "figure du paysan" and also to circumvent the negativeness and derisiveness of the term "peasant".
Carl Stoll May 15, 2013:
To Nikki Scott-Despaigne The sort of situation you describe is highly irregular and means that the writer is not following conventional rules of meaning. Consequently the text CANNOT BE TRANSLATED by using conventional rules of translating so ALL BETS ARE OFF.
Carl Stoll May 15, 2013:
to John Peterson Your terminological proposal assumes a transition from what I suppose you mean to be smallholder-based to wage-labour-based farming. You are entitled to assume such a transition ONLY if you have reasonable grounds to conclude that such a transition HAS ACTUALLY HISTORICALLY TAKEN PLACE. You are NOT entitled to assume such a transition on general principles or purely as a logical next step, as you seem to imply.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne May 15, 2013:
@ Carl Such is not my intention. The same term "paysan" is used throughout the text. In different situations it is quite plausible that a different term may be quite appropriate in English.
Carl Stoll May 15, 2013:
to Nikki Scott-Despaigne That's like saying that a fork is a spoon, 'cause they both work.
Carl Stoll May 15, 2013:
to HJT Translation Lenin is writing about the peasants' future prospects, not their current condition. Their class character is determined by their present, not their future. So what counts is whether they own land NOW or not. If they own land NOW [or have a lease], they are peasants.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne May 14, 2013:
I think that you might use a number of different terms for "paysan" throughout. Although one term is used in the French, there is nothing to prevent you from using any of the terms you have suggested in your post, any of which may work.
John Peterson May 14, 2013:
As the article is called the Hammer versus the Sickle, there could be a sense of transition towards a more industrialised form of agriculture (and the class structure implications). So "peasant" might work in this particular instance. As for figure, picture or face might work as well.

etudesrurales.revues.org/document3028.html‎
HJT Translation (asker) May 14, 2013:
Sample sentence where 'paysan' appears: "En effet, dans la doctrine léniniste, la figure du paysan est marquée au sceau de sa propre négation. Catégorie flexible et sans devenir, sans existence propre, le paysan n'est que ce qu'il devrait être: soit un futur prolétaire, soit un bourgeois en puissance..." Would the 'figure of the farm worker' sound right here?

Proposed translations

+5
35 minutes
Selected

farmers

I am fairly conversant with the history of French labour movement, although not an expert. Unlike Spanish agriculture, for example, French agriculture was not characterised by great concentration of land ownership and a large class of landless peasants. Consequently I am fairly sure that "farm workers" i.e. a rural proletariat, were not the French Communist Party's target in the rural sector. Rather they addressed small landowners, i.e. farmers.
Peer comment(s):
agree Tony M
45 minutes
agree JaneD
9 heures
agree Yvonne Gallagher : http://dictionary.reverso.net/french-english/paysan// peasant farmer" also exists
13 heures
disagree jmleger : An industrial workers does not own his means of production, a farmer can own a farm and the land he works
19 heures
agree Kirsten Bodart
23 heures
agree writeaway : as I suggested in my peer agree earlier on.
1 jour 12 heures
agree raptisi
3 jours 14 heures
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
+2
1 minute

farm workers

par ex.
Peer comment(s):
agree emiledgar : beat me to it!
6 minutes
Yeah, I don't think what else it could be. That's the name on tax forms anyway.
agree writeaway : or just farmers. something any bilingual person would know without looking it up. it took you 1 minute to post........./well since you don't live in NYC, it's understandable.......
15 minutes
I am chained to my computer so I have nowhere to go but Proz
neutral Tony M : Not really, because the key difference is that 'workers' are employed, whereas 'paysans' will be self-employed smallholders
1 heure
As a socioeconomic ctegory they are both culs-terreux.
agree katsy
1 heure
Thx!
agree Karl A. Wilson
3 heures
Thx!
agree MatthewLaSon
4 heures
disagree Carl Stoll : I completely disagree. There is an ENORMOUS difference between owning or leasing land that one works on one's own and not having any land.
6 heures
disagree Francis Marche : agree with Tony and Carl Stroll. "farm workers" are "ouvriers agricoles" in French
8 heures
disagree Jocelyne Cuenin : dans la foulée
13 heures
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13 minutes

agricultural workers/rural workers

Maybe a sample sentence might help, but agricultural/rural workers might be a possibility. Referring to your farmer/worker issue, using sector might be a possibility e.g. "those in the agrarian sector" or just the "agrarian sector"
Peer comment(s):
neutral writeaway : yes but not really in this historical context. your terminology is more EU, more now
6 minutes
I think that you'll find agricultural and rural workers do fit this historical context, especially one with its roots in Marxism
neutral Tony M : Not really, because the key difference is that 'workers' are employed, whereas 'paysans' will be self-employed smallholders
1 heure
Not sure I understand your point - I think one of the issues here is the change to a more industrialised agricultural system; where "smallholdings" diminish and erstwhile smallholders become workers
neutral Carl Stoll : "Agrarian" is NOT usually a synonym of "agricultural". You write "THE change to a more industrialised agricultural system". WHAT change? Did such a change actually occur in those specific places or not? If not, "the change" is non-existent and IRRELEVANT
16 heures
For your benefit: http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/agrarian
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1 heure
français term (edited): paysans

smallholders

I agree with Carl — there's a very important distinction to be made here, between 'paysans', who were (and still are) independent small farmers, and as such, consider(ed) themselves a cut above 'mere' workers who were employed.

I live here in deepest rural France, and even today, people are proud to refer to themselves as 'paysans' "because I have land" (even if it's only rented!) — round here, they still often tend to be right-wing and consider that the French Revolution was a bad idea brought about by those poor unfortunate (but Bolshy before the word!) industrial workers.

I know, I know — I'm generalizing like mad and trying to sum up 300 years of French history in two sentences; but I hope you get the point of what I'm trying to say, and in particular, that such deeply-ingrained notions subsist today, at least here in the stagnant backwaters of « la France profonde ». I'd also like to point out that these are not simply my ex-pat's outsider views, but the result of many long conversations with local 'paysans' and others.
Peer comment(s):
disagree Francis Marche : These are "petits exploitants", both in France and Francophone Africa. Too narrowly defined and specific.
7 heures
Regardless of how it back-translates, the fact is that this is about the closest term used in EN to convey the same idea; in the target language it is neither 'narrow' nor 'specific'
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : I agree with your explanation and think "smallholders" might work but it seems more associated with back-to-the-country hippy types. Here often foreigners esp, Germans who farm organically on smallholdings)
12 heures
Thanks, G2! I don't feel the same associations as you, to me the description is pretty exact.
agree Wolf Draeger : After seeing Asker's related dépaysannisation question, agree this seems correct. Perhaps "subsistence farmers"?
6 jours
Thanks, Wolf! That could indeed work, though I feel it possibly introduces a qualitative element not there in the source term; in FR, we do have some relatively 'well-off' peasants, for whom the French Revolution was an unwelcome nuisance.
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-3
3 heures

land owners

My understanding is that this is the true meaning of paysans in France. They are the tennants. They may farm the land or not to do so. But they own it _ before and after the French Revolution.
Peer comment(s):
disagree writeaway : land owners are not necessarily 'paysans'. In fact that term in English wouldn't normally be used for 'paysans' at all.
6 heures
disagree Tony M : Agree with W/A: the term 'land owners' connotes much more with 'the rich'
7 heures
disagree B D Finch : If they were landowners (NB one word), then they wouldn't be tenants (one "n"). However, it is not the true meaning of "paysans" in France or anywhere else.
6 jours
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+2
8 heures

the peasantry

Although "peasantry" is "paysannerie" in French, it can help work around the difficulty by denoting a social group rather than a distinct individual status.
Peer comment(s):
agree GILLES MEUNIER
1 heure
agree raptisi
3 jours 6 heures
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16 heures
français term (edited): paysans

peasants

For sake of completeness, it is not uncommon for English native press to use the term "peasant" in the context of discussions about French politics and society.

Examples :
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/10/french-communist...

France's Communist party has undergone a revolution and dropped the hammer and sickle from its membership cards.

The party (PCF) is replacing the communist emblem of peasants and the proletariat with a five-pointed star representing the European Left, a loose alliance of far-left parties, including France's Left Front. The move, announced at the party's 36th congress, which closed on Sunday, has angered traditionalists.

"Everyone in the party is shocked," Emmanuel Dang Tran, the party's Paris secretary told France Info radio. "The PCF is allowing itself and its values to be swallowed up by another organisation."

He said the hammer and sickle represented "a historic element in resistance against the politics of capitalism for the working class of this country", and accused the party leadership of selling out to a form of social democracy made up of "Greens, socialists, Trotskyists and I don't know who else".

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Note added at 16 hrs (2013-05-15 11:57:49 GMT)
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/feb/12/hammer-a...
"workers and peasants" (peasnats appears 17 times.
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+2
19 heures

peasant farmers

Combining both words might be the best way of expressing this. "Farmers" would include "gentleman farmers" and agribusinesses, neither of which are "paysans".

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 hrs (2013-05-15 14:42:42 GMT)
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You might enjoy this:
http://services.completefrance.com/forums/completefrance/cs/...

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Note added at 19 hrs (2013-05-15 14:48:47 GMT)
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books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=1859738532
Marianne E. Lien, Brigitte Nerlich - 2004 - Medical
" ... network of self-identified peasant farmers as a key site within a wider French ... in a milieu largely dominated by France's number one union of industrial farmers, ... "

www.paulkingsnorth.net/journalism/ave-a-go-ero/‎
"In the 1980s, Bové, along with other peasant farmers from the region, began to ... "

fraudcastnews.wordpress.com/.../industrial-agriculture-meets-peasant-far...‎
"Industrial agriculture meets peasant farmers – who wins? ... as an independent journalist following the trials of French farmers fighting against ... "

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Note added at 19 hrs (2013-05-15 14:50:28 GMT)
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Above link unamputated (just delete space):
http://services.completefrance.com/ forums/completefrance/cs/forums/1835113/ShowPost.aspx
Peer comment(s):
neutral writeaway : Ok, no prob./ I actually mentioned 'farmers' in my peer agree and that was posted later on as an answer by someone else. I wasn't really interested in posting an answer. I'll stick to a neutral because don't fully agree with peasant farmers.
1 heure
I hadn't noticed that gallagy had mentioned this as I had only read the other answers, not the comments on them. So, apologies to gallagy, but she should perhaps have posted the term as an answer.
agree Sheila Wilson : this was mentioned by gallagy2, but not by the poster of another answer, so I think it's totally valid to post it here - I also think it might be the way to go, at least in some of the occurrences in the text in question
6 heures
Thanks Sheila.
agree Yvonne Gallagher : obviously I agree
6 jours
Thanks gallagy
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Reference comments

6 jours
Reference:

Some dictionary defs of peasant

Fwiw:

A member of the class constituted by small farmers and tenants, sharecroppers, and laborers on the land where they form the main labor force in agriculture (American Heritage).

A person of inferior rank or condition living in the country or in a rural village, and usually engaged in agricultural labor; a rustic; a countryman. A peasant may or may not be the proprietor of the land which he cultivates; in Great Britain he is distinguished from a farmer as having less property, education, or culture, or inferior social position: but the word is very vague. The French peasant (paysan) and the German peasant (bauer) were until recently greatly restricted in their civil and political rights. The word is not used In the United States, where there is no comparatively stable body of agricultural laborers corresponding to the European peasantry (Century).

A member of a class of low social status that depends on either cottage industry or agricultural labour as a means of subsistence (Collins).
Reference:

http://www.wordnik.com/words/peasant

http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/peasant?utm_source=searchbox&utm_medium=widget&utm_campaign=english&utm_content=www.coll

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