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"Diversity" in the translation industry
Auteur du fil: Gerard Barry

Becca Resnik  Identity Verified
États-Unis
Local time: 03:02
Membre
allemand vers anglais
+ ...
. Oct 31, 2020

Gerard Barry wrote:

As a man working in the translation sector, it's pretty obvious that a) the number of men working in the field is very small and b) there are no efforts on anyone's part to change this. Yet when women are underrepresented in any field (and even when they are very well represented!), there are are all sorts of initiatives to increase their numbers.


Gerard Barry wrote:

I also think it's interesting when you say "What has been the response when you tell the diversity officer that you perceive they are pushing all white men out, and that this is not the proper way to diversity? because you seem to be assuming here - just like my employer does - that so-called "diversity" is some worthy goal in and of itself. I don't. "Diversity" is an ideology that originated in America - probably in your universities - and has spread like a cancer to Europe. Please don't assume that we call agree with it. I believe in meritocracy, not so-called "diversity".


Gerard Barry wrote:

But because I'm in a department where women are already in the majority (which is fine - women clearly have a greater interests than men in working as translators), this makes me feel like "an idiot" in the sense that it makes me feel unwelcome and unappreciated. Added to that is the fact that all my female colleagues are of a different nationality to me, thus increasing my sense of "otherness".


Gerard Barry wrote:

I sometimes find it hard as a man working in a female-dominated workplace and I feel no need to apologise to anyone for that.


I'm finding a lot of what you say conflicting.

You started this thread with the implication that you want there to be efforts to increase the number of male translators. You later make several statements explicitly stating your disagreement with diversity efforts of any kind. You then state that being surrounded by people of a different gender and nationality makes you feel "unwelcome," "unappreciated," and a "sense of otherness" and that you "find it hard as a man working in a female-dominated workplace."

So you want diversity hiring efforts (but also...don't?). And you feel the effects of being in the minority. But you've done nothing more to change your situation than send a single email to someone with a diversity title. No further explanation of your viewpoint, no telling your coworkers that what they say is offensive (even though you get on well with them?), etc. You're not leaping at the suggestion of quitting and/or freelancing.

I suppose I'm confused as to what the change is that you seek. It's becoming increasingly difficult to see this thread as anything more than the airing of grievances. What have I missed?


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Mervyn Henderson
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Mervyn Henderson  Identity Verified
Espagne
Local time: 09:02
espagnol vers anglais
+ ...
Where ... Nov 1, 2020

is big Billy Goat Gruff when you need him?

I don't see the point of someone banging on relentlessly about this for over one month now if they don't care, as Kay was told.

My apologies here, Gerard, if someone's already said this next bit and you've already churned out reams and reams by way of a response, but your very first comment on 29 September, that you were especially interested in hearing from other men about this issue, kind of sets the tone for what you want t
... See more
is big Billy Goat Gruff when you need him?

I don't see the point of someone banging on relentlessly about this for over one month now if they don't care, as Kay was told.

My apologies here, Gerard, if someone's already said this next bit and you've already churned out reams and reams by way of a response, but your very first comment on 29 September, that you were especially interested in hearing from other men about this issue, kind of sets the tone for what you want to hear, doesn't it? But apparently you aren't hearing it. As far as I can see, lots of men have already told you what they think, in addition to the women, but you just go on and on and on and on like an old record with the stylus stuck between two grooves.


Speaking of records, Chas and Dave don't care either, but they're XXXXXXXX times more relaxed about it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FDoQTyYWzM



[Edited at 2020-11-01 08:29 GMT]
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P.L.F.Persio
Chris S
expressisverbis
 

Chris S  Identity Verified
Royaume-Uni
suédois vers anglais
+ ...
Nail meet head Nov 1, 2020

P.L.F.Persio wrote:
Incel

Lol. That was a new word to me. Like it. I shall endeavour to use it daily.

I see this is my 20th post in this thread, so I’m as guilty as anyone of perpetuating it. Soz. I’d best jump back in my play pen. But first a little introspection...

When I’m at my most balanced and reasonable, which isn’t very, I can see that collectively we haven’t been at all nice to Gerard, and I’ve been by far the meanest.

Does he deserve it? Is he not entitled to air his views, sexist and racist as they may seem? We can counter them, but is it OK to vilify him? Where do you draw the line?

My grandparents were as racist as they come yet they were lovely, gentle people. Nothing in life is simple.

Now we have this Twitter-driven “cancel culture” where people put one foot wrong and they’re out. And I hate that - yet I’m doing the same thing here. I’m old enough to be a Sheila Wilson or a Dan Lucas, but it seems I’m still just too immature.

Blimey, what a way to spend a Sunday morning.

Anyway, a final thought for Gerard. I’ve had three employees over the years: two women, one of them with a disability, and a gay man (sadly all white, so I haven’t quite managed the diversity full house). Every single one of them turned out to be a pain in the arse - but in hindsight I realise that the biggest pain in the arse was me.


P.L.F.Persio
Matthias Brombach
Mervyn Henderson
Kay Denney
expressisverbis
 

P.L.F.Persio  Identity Verified
Pays-Bas
Local time: 09:02
Membre (2010)
anglais vers italien
+ ...
Now I feel bad Nov 1, 2020

Chris S wrote:

I see this is my 20th post in this thread, so I’m as guilty as anyone of perpetuating it. Soz. I’d best jump back in my play pen. But first a little introspection...

When I’m at my most balanced and reasonable, which isn’t very, I can see that collectively we haven’t been at all nice to Gerard, and I’ve been by far the meanest.

Does he deserve it? Is he not entitled to air his views, sexist and racist as they may seem? We can counter them, but is it OK to vilify him? Where do you draw the line?

My grandparents were as racist as they come yet they were lovely, gentle people. Nothing in life is simple.

Now we have this Twitter-driven “cancel culture” where people put one foot wrong and they’re out. And I hate that - yet I’m doing the same thing here. I’m old enough to be a Sheila Wilson or a Dan Lucas, but it seems I’m still just too immature.

Blimey, what a way to spend a Sunday morning.

Anyway, a final thought for Gerard. I’ve had three employees over the years: two women, one of them with a disability, and a gay man (sadly all white, so I haven’t quite managed the diversity full house). Every single one of them turned out to be a pain in the arse - but in hindsight I realise that the biggest pain in the arse was me.


You're right, Chris, nothing in life is simple. I realise that Gerard might have felt overwhelmed by the avalanche of our negative replies. (If you haven't, Gerard, fair enough.) I don't want to "cancel" him, I just genuinely wish that he could see the error of his way. He can say that I'm a patronising (or matronising) b****, but I don't wish him any ill.

I can't say that I'm not annoyed, though. I've been a representative of the female persuasion since before my birth, and for a long time now, and I have a daughter. I've met my fair share of sexist, racist, bigot people (men and women), therefore I'm sick and tired of the same old chestnuts.

We all can be good and bad. In that "good", and in that "bad", there's an ample spectrum of different behaviours, motivations, experiences, pain, fears, life.

Here's what the immortal, wise Beatles had to say: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qyclqo_AV2M

And, lest we forget: Hate the sin, not the sinner. Maybe it's love the sinner, but I don't want to be accused of sexual harassment. I hate your views, Gerard, but I'll try to show you a tiny bit of empathy.

[Edited at 2020-11-01 12:23 GMT]


Mervyn Henderson
Becca Resnik
Chris S
expressisverbis
 

Gerard Barry
Allemagne
Local time: 09:02
allemand vers anglais
AUTEUR DU FIL
Conflicting statements? Nov 1, 2020

@Becca: How long did it take you to go through my previous posts like that? That's an odd way to spend your time on a Saturday! If you don't mind me saying so, it makes you look very argumentative and querulous. I've also noticed in some of your posts addressed to me that you seem to think that I have to explain myself to you. I don't.

I don't think my statements are that contradictory. If they seem that way, maybe it's because the whole "diversity" / identity politics thing is a lo
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@Becca: How long did it take you to go through my previous posts like that? That's an odd way to spend your time on a Saturday! If you don't mind me saying so, it makes you look very argumentative and querulous. I've also noticed in some of your posts addressed to me that you seem to think that I have to explain myself to you. I don't.

I don't think my statements are that contradictory. If they seem that way, maybe it's because the whole "diversity" / identity politics thing is a load of bollox anyway so it's hardly surprising if my thoughts on it might come across as confused. In any case, isn't it normal for people to contradict themselves sometimes?

You remarked at the end of your post if I was simply "airing grievances" on this thread. The answer of course is yes. Surely there's nothing wrong with that.
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Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 09:02
Membre (2018)
français vers anglais
. Nov 2, 2020

Gerard Barry wrote:

@Kay: I don't really care what you think to be honest. I sometimes find it hard as a man working in a female-dominated workplace and I feel no need to apologise to anyone for that.


I feel sorry for your colleagues. My apologies to those who were waiting with bated breath for doughnuts this morning.
I'm not asking for an apology. I just wish you could understand. But hey, at least I won the argument.


P.L.F.Persio
expressisverbis
 

Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 09:02
Membre (2018)
français vers anglais
. Nov 2, 2020

Chris S wrote:

Every single one of them turned out to be a pain in the arse - but in hindsight I realise that the biggest pain in the arse was me.


As they say, when everyone you meet is an arsehole, it means you are the arsehole!

Or to put it more nicely, there's the parable of the old man sitting at the entrance to the city gates. A traveller arrives and asks him what the people are like here. Rather than answer straight off, the old man asks what the people were like in the city he has just come from. "Total jerks, that's why I left" the traveller tells him. The old man replies, "You'll find they are the same here". A short while later another traveller arrives and asks the same question. Again the old man answers with the same question but the traveller tells him they were all really kind and generous people. The old man replies, "You'll find they are the same here".


Chris S
Mervyn Henderson
P.L.F.Persio
Becca Resnik
expressisverbis
Robert Rietvelt
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
 

Sam Abramov
Russie
Local time: 14:02
anglais vers russe
+ ...
Call me a chauvinist, but... Nov 2, 2020

I don't write here often and I won't in the future.

I do want to point out the bias again the Garry-Barry person is real.
The way I can summarise the discussion so far:
If you try to even mention that women might be something other than flawless beings you automatically become a chauvinist.
The amount of double standard is the topic is basically what forced me to write the following.

Yes, lots of women get slaughtered and abused and all sorts of nasty
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I don't write here often and I won't in the future.

I do want to point out the bias again the Garry-Barry person is real.
The way I can summarise the discussion so far:
If you try to even mention that women might be something other than flawless beings you automatically become a chauvinist.
The amount of double standard is the topic is basically what forced me to write the following.

Yes, lots of women get slaughtered and abused and all sorts of nasty stuff every day, as we are literally discussing the issue at hand. However they get this treatment (mostly, I understand how huge generalisation this is) because of their status/race/age are victims not because of their sex, there are also a great (if not greater) number of male victims who undergo the same treatment, yet the esteemed colleagues omit this vital (IMHO) piece of information.

Female bullies make life of their colleagues as miserable as any jock.

In the country I mostly work at (that’s Russia) female dominated workforce (be it a business company or a steel foundry) has mostly been deemed as a “the viper’s nest” – not by me, just a general consensus. Being a green hand, I’d always vehemently disagreed with that statement. After changing 3-5 female dominated companies (state and private; small and large-scale) I’d grudgingly agree with the consensus.
It does not matter what your sex is: being in power and having an ability to affect your colleagues'/underlings' lives does something to many people.
Funny that you’d say that “if you don’t like it quit” to guys. However saying the very same thing to a minority/girls makes you wrong and evil at the same time.

Several feminist bullies (hardcore feminists in Russia are something: they want to be treated as princesses and have equal opportunities at the same time) I’ve observed were ok to taunt and berate their male/female victims over and over and over again, however were quick to play the girl (or seniority or age) card as soon as a male victim would try to fight back.
It seems that I’ve blabbered on quite a lot, but I don’t really like seeing how a position of reasonable realism gets painted patriarchal.
I don’t think that in this day and age the phrase “You’re a big boy, you can take it”, which is basically the position of topic starter’s opponents flies.

P.S. I'd be sad if all that you take from this post would be "another incel's raging over how unfair the world is to him", but life ain't a fairytale...
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Sadek_A
 

Gerard Barry
Allemagne
Local time: 09:02
allemand vers anglais
AUTEUR DU FIL
My colleagues Nov 2, 2020

@Kay: Don't worry, when I'm at work, I'm as meek as a mouse. As a man, and a foreigner to boot, I know my place;) But thank God for the Internet at least, where we can all be a little bit more honest about things.

If it's any consolation to you, I'm not that keen on male translators either. In fact, I'd describe translators in general using the following words: nerdy, pedantic, snobby, elitist and boring.


 

P.L.F.Persio  Identity Verified
Pays-Bas
Local time: 09:02
Membre (2010)
anglais vers italien
+ ...
Holy Moly, I'm an arsehole too! Nov 2, 2020

Kay Denney wrote:

Chris S wrote:

Every single one of them turned out to be a pain in the arse - but in hindsight I realise that the biggest pain in the arse was me.


As they say, when everyone you meet is an arsehole, it means you are the arsehole!

Or to put it more nicely, there's the parable of the old man sitting at the entrance to the city gates. A traveller arrives and asks him what the people are like here. Rather than answer straight off, the old man asks what the people were like in the city he has just come from. "Total jerks, that's why I left" the traveller tells him. The old man replies, "You'll find they are the same here". A short while later another traveller arrives and asks the same question. Again the old man answers with the same question but the traveller tells him they were all really kind and generous people. The old man replies, "You'll find they are the same here".


When they ask me why I left Italy, I always answer: "Because I couldn't stand the lot of them." Well, they couldn't stand me either, I can tell you that, and the feeling is still reciprocated. (Never went back to the Old Country in 15 years, and I'm not exactly Miss Popularity in the IT forum on here.)

But I do love the Netherlands, my new home, and the Dutch as well. And I don't mind sharing my arseholery with Chris S, it's a great honour indeed.


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Chris S
expressisverbis
Kay Denney
 

P.L.F.Persio  Identity Verified
Pays-Bas
Local time: 09:02
Membre (2010)
anglais vers italien
+ ...
Ok, that's it Nov 2, 2020

Gerard Barry wrote:

@Kay: Don't worry, when I'm at work, I'm as meek as a mouse. As a man, and a foreigner to boot, I know my place;) But thank God for the Internet at least, where we can all be a little bit more honest about things.

If it's any consolation to you, I'm not that keen on male translators either. In fact, I'd describe translators in general using the following words: nerdy, pedantic, snobby, elitist and boring.


Then do us all a favour: leave us alone, will ya, luv. And don't let the door hit you on the way out.


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Kay Denney
 

Sadek_A  Identity Verified
Local time: 03:02
anglais vers arabe
+ ...
OUCH🤕! Nov 2, 2020

Gerard Barry wrote:
nerdy, pedantic, snobby, elitist and boring.


They all could indeed be traits of a professional translator, not an amateur one.

That's how you know you got a good translator on your hands.

But, further explanation may be needed:

- nerdy: that's a given; you have to be a "text worm".
- pedantic: they (clients, reviewers, editors, the whole gang) would come after you if you weren't.
- snobby: only against those who aren't nice.
- elitist: priority to the educated, intellectual and above all disciplined. Results won't be any good at the hands of the un(educated/intellectual/disciplined).
- boring: only with those who aren't friendly or who are boring themselves. You have to be surrounded by people who are warm and can feed you situations and/or lines for you to be funny; otherwise, the person becomes a mere resident clown!


Sam Abramov
 

expressisverbis
Portugal
Local time: 08:02
Membre (2015)
anglais vers portugais
+ ...
Doing some self-examination? Nov 2, 2020

Gerard Barry wrote:

In fact, I'd describe translators in general using the following words: nerdy, pedantic, snobby, elitist and boring.


Looking at yourself in the mirror, right?
I said before I wouldn't write a single letter here, but I couldn't be indifferent to this offensive statement in particular.
After reading this, I believe this has nothing to be with "diversity" or women dominance in translation industry at all.
This seems to be much more serious than I imagined!


Mervyn Henderson
P.L.F.Persio
Chris S
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
Kay Denney
Becca Resnik
 

Mervyn Henderson  Identity Verified
Espagne
Local time: 09:02
espagnol vers anglais
+ ...
Mirror, mirror on the wall ... Nov 2, 2020

Nice one, Exy!!!

P.L.F.Persio
expressisverbis
Chris S
Kay Denney
 
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