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"Diversity" in the translation industry
Auteur du fil: Gerard Barry

Zibow Retailleau  Identity Verified
Maurice, république de
Local time: 00:51
Membre (2019)
anglais vers chinois
+ ...
for what it's worth Oct 25, 2020

Sadek_A wrote:

... a female described my earlier post with one of those "uncanny" remarks, she thought her remark (addressed directly to myself!) wasn't harmful; the question now is: would she have accepted the same remark by a male colleague addressed directly to her on something she wrote?! I don't think so; hence, the "women don't play fair".



I admit that my remark was personal and I apologise if it has caused any harm. After reading the 'It is the wild out there' post and remembering the unfair treatment of a female contributor, I lost my cool. But please refrain from assuming what I can or can not accept. Wild guesses in this context lead to nowhere and one risks appearing arrogant, among other things.

Now, could someone please tell me why being a flight attendant is demeaning? Is it only because some snobs are contemptuous of them? I think I can understand this. I was a shopgirl and I don't care to recall how I was treated by certain customers. Apparently, for some people respect doesn't come naturally; it comes with social status and oh, of course, genders.


expressisverbis
P.L.F.Persio
marijaflora
 

Sadek_A  Identity Verified
Local time: 15:51
anglais vers arabe
+ ...
Thanks for sharing, Matthias. You might like mine too. Oct 25, 2020

I am a person who likes to keep his life events as private as possible, but here is an excerpt:

I was in an Arab country that follows western-world business standards, inside a company that encompassed several nationalities.

An Asian female (Filipina, to be precise) who, for some unknown reason, rode my ears with personal details about her life (not that I ever asked her to share!)

Several details here and there, but one stuck out; she told me about how her
... See more
I am a person who likes to keep his life events as private as possible, but here is an excerpt:

I was in an Arab country that follows western-world business standards, inside a company that encompassed several nationalities.

An Asian female (Filipina, to be precise) who, for some unknown reason, rode my ears with personal details about her life (not that I ever asked her to share!)

Several details here and there, but one stuck out; she told me about how her mother always warned her not to get together with Arabs, Indians nor Muslims because they abuse women (I didn't really care enough to ask her about the nature of said abuse!).

I was never offended by her revelation (both of them were entitled to their opinions; opinions that don't define reality!), but rather deeply perplexed. Living and getting paid in an Arab/Muslim country and being surrounded everywhere by all 3 forbidden categories was good enough for the mother and the daughter, but getting together with one of the 3 categories was a No No!

Imagine an Arab/Indian/Muslim male going to her in the Philippines and saying to her something stupid like: "my mother warned me not to get together with Filipinas because they consume cats and dogs for food".

After that she kept the personal details coming at every turn.

***Moral here is: the woman can also be the source of discrimination, sexism, racism and more.


At the same company, a Dutch female (Chinese descent; clearly from an immigrant family, or an immigrant herself) from the Netherlands.

This one used to constantly make SEXIST SEX jokes, not just sex jokes in the workplace, but also sexist ones.

Innocent as I always am, and too much inspired by utopian business/corporate standards on workplace best practices regarding sex talk/humor as faithfully depicted in Hollywood movies and western media, I took the chance one time while she was in the act and asked her: "can you make all these workplace jokes in the Netherlands?".

She looked me in the eye, boldly, and said "yes, because most of the workforce there are women". At that point, I wasn't really concerned about how true her statistic of the workforce was, rather I was lost --and still am-- as to what kind of a reason that was?!

Since we are the majority in the workplace, we say what we want whenever and however we want?! Isn't this the exact same thing many men are being chased away with torches over having (allegedly) thought, sometime, somewhere?!

***Moral here is: some modern women are starting to become abusers themselves, and in a far worse way than some men were/are!

Some women abuse their own kids, what wouldn't they do to a stranger male? The woman isn't, and can't be, the symbol of innocence. We are all humans and have to respect each other and play fair by the same rules.
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Gerard Barry
Sam Abramov
 

Sadek_A  Identity Verified
Local time: 15:51
anglais vers arabe
+ ...
So, Oct 25, 2020

Zibow Retailleau wrote:

I admit that my remark was personal and I apologise if it has caused any harm. After reading the 'It is the wild out there' post and remembering the unfair treatment of a female contributor, I lost my cool. But please refrain from assuming what I can or can not accept. Wild guesses in this context lead to nowhere and one risks appearing arrogant, among other things.

Now, could someone please tell me why being a flight attendant is demeaning? Is it only because some snobs are contemptuous of them? I think I can understand this. I was a shopgirl and I don't care to recall how I was treated by certain customers. Apparently, for some people respect doesn't come naturally; it comes with social status and oh, of course, genders.


you would accept me calling the above statements of yours [blah blah blah]?

Because I can shred them one by one! But, I WON'T.

Your remark actually helped strengthen the point brought forward by the first post of this thread!


 

expressisverbis
Portugal
Local time: 20:51
Membre (2015)
anglais vers portugais
+ ...
I'm sorry for my long reply... Oct 25, 2020

Sadek_A wrote:

No worries, the Arab will take the blame for it, that's what he is here for anyway. You are a westerner, you're safe. They would only come after you if there was no Arab (or, a number of other assorted others -- not saying who!) in the picture.

I also replied to expressisverbis a long time earlier, but the reply hasn't made it to the public eye yet!


I am seeing your reply just now, and I can't understand what you say. As far as I understand, you are North African (?), and you speak Arabic.

Matthias Brombach wrote:

... "they" already came after me. Not "them" you think of, but all kind of tigers and tigresses in my numeral careers I have behind me, dominating their group with subtle humiliation and accompanied by the worst of them, the sub- and sub sub tigers and tigresses, no matter whether male or female, white, brown or from the Arabian peninsula etc., before I locked down myself in my home office, lucky to be more or less only judged by what I am doing and not by what I am or not. As I already wrote earlier here, it is a matter of power one or two persons may have in a group and how they foster their most miserable kind of power. And yes, males and females may then act in a different way. The situation you described can only occur in a work environment with an already existing generally poisoned atmosphere. There you can experience the worst of both sexes, no matter what education or cultural background they have. The reason why I liked your post was the style it was written, how you described a situation of abusing power in a subtle way (if I understood you right) and which distinguishes you from the usual bunch of persons, who nowadays feel so foolishly dogged (pursued) by "political correctness" (if I have understood you right so far) and can count on a thankful audience and even political support


I agree with Mattias. Who has not experienced any form of discrimination or uncomfortable situation before? It is not a matter of being a woman or a man. The only problem is the lack of respect I keep seeing day after day, between men and women, old and young, employer and employee, etc.

Sadek_A wrote:

In the animal kingdom, a tigress is a mother as well. Her being harsh or a hunter doesn't revoke the fact she could be a mother too.

The OP of this thread was complaining that, in passing, women around him used to make -let's say "uncanny" remarks, to be polite- which they regarded as un-harmful but were in fact hurtful to him.

In one of the latest posts of this thread that you, expressisverbis, have put a like to, a female described my earlier post with one of those "uncanny" remarks, she thought her remark (addressed directly to myself!) wasn't harmful; the question now is: would she have accepted the same remark by a male colleague addressed directly to her on something she wrote?! I don't think so; hence, the "women don't play fair".

Sadly, the rhetoric has, a long time ago, changed from "let's stop abusive men" into "let's abuse men".

I read this thread when it started, and the moment I saw what it was about it immediately reminded me of a few years back when Madrid was apparently trying to get on the good side of Feminism. SOME male metro-commuters used to sit with their legs spread wide open (apparently too wide as deemed by feminists), later a term was coined "manspreading" to help the media coverage and feminists of course, and instead of dealing with those SOME abusers (by, perhaps, introducing a fine/ticket conducted by an undercover metro officer!), no, they went on and punished the whole male commuters by saying they must sit in the same position as a woman (I even saw pictures of Red Xs on metro car floor where man's feet will have to be placed!) Now, is the man anatomically the same as the woman?! Does the woman have something between her legs that can be put in a confirmed medical danger by such a pose on a daily basis of commute?!

Men and women are different, and that difference must be respected. And, the fact that some men are abusive doesn't mean that 1) some women aren't abusive as well. 2) non-abusive men has to suffer in the process and be subject to scare tactics by feminists and feminism!


Ok. Better to be called a "tigresse" than a "gazelle", right?

I don't "like", I "agree". If our colleague made a remark directly to you that's because she saw something coming from you she didn't like, and she paid you back in kind. I usually agree with the most part of my colleagues in many threads.

No, I think you are mistaken in that “rhetoric”. Read the newspapers, please. There is a high number of women being killed by men.

Honestly, I have never heard about this before in Madrid, but I also have two stories.
1st:
Years ago (If I am not mistaken, in 2007), I was in Cairo for professional reasons.
I was working in a room with Egyptian fellow translators (only ladies) and everything went very well.
There was a moment when I felt something strange was going on. One of the ladies was telling the others that I needed to leave the room for a few moments. It was a specific time in the afternoon for doing a specific task.
I realized what it was, I smiled, and I said it was ok, no problem. I left the room leaving them comfortable to do what they needed to do: to pray together.
I was a bit sad, but I understood them… and I said to myself, using a standard expression of yours: “Malesh!”

2nd:
The last day I was in Cairo, my flight was late at night. So, I asked at the hotel to keep my luggage for me.
There was an old man in charge of the luggage, and I remember I was more than an hour waiting for him to pick my things.
After that endless hour, he came close to me and said in a non-friendly tone:
Give me your luggage. We well keep it for you until 6 pm. Then, he asked: You are a foreigner, where do you come from? From Iran?
When I told him I was Portuguese he smiled... I have not understood this reaction very well at that time, but… if I was Iranian what would be the problem with that?

I am learning how to deal with the lack of respect (This is the main issue, I think)... or I try to deal with it.
Life already gives us so many problems that we could avoid some more, don't you think?
As you can clearly see, men and women can be very evil and they do not play fair... in every place of the world!


[Edited at 2020-10-25 12:19 GMT]


P.L.F.Persio
Zibow Retailleau
Becca Resnik
Mervyn Henderson
 

Gerard Barry
Allemagne
Local time: 21:51
allemand vers anglais
AUTEUR DU FIL
Quotas and other such nonsense Oct 25, 2020

@Chris S: I couldn't give a damn what percentage of the population of London is from ethnic minorities. If a company is to go down the route of ridiculous quotas when it comes to hiring and promotions (which it shouldn't), then surely they should base their quotas on the national population, not the population of one city where a lot of the companies in that sector happen to be located? Otherwise you could have a situation where a qualified white person from a working class background in the nor... See more
@Chris S: I couldn't give a damn what percentage of the population of London is from ethnic minorities. If a company is to go down the route of ridiculous quotas when it comes to hiring and promotions (which it shouldn't), then surely they should base their quotas on the national population, not the population of one city where a lot of the companies in that sector happen to be located? Otherwise you could have a situation where a qualified white person from a working class background in the north of England (for example) will lose out on a job to a more privileged, but perhaps less well qualified, black or brown person from London whose parents are doctors, lawyers, engineers, whatever. Maybe to a leftist identitarian such as yourself that's fair but to me it's outrageous.

In any case, hiring based on ethnic or gender quotas is a farce. In the NHS, for example, people from "ethnic minorities" are statistically over-represented, yet we don't hear calls for greater "diversity" there, do we? Statistical disparities between groups in terms of work performed, level of education, even income, are not proof positive of discrimination, no matter how much the "diversity" fasc.., sorry fanatics like to pretend they are.
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Sadek_A  Identity Verified
Local time: 15:51
anglais vers arabe
+ ...
wow, this is going to be overtime :) Oct 25, 2020

expressisverbis wrote:
I am seeing your reply just now, and I can't understand what you say. As far as I understand, you are North African (?), and you speak Arabic.

I was simply referring to myself in third-person. And, by "picture" I meant this forum.

expressisverbis wrote:
I agree with Mattias. Who has not experienced any form of discrimination or uncomfortable situation before? It is not a matter of being a woman or a man. The only problem is the lack of respect I keep seeing day after day, between men and women, old and young, employer and employee, etc.

Hence, this thread, to try and unload, but without adding to the outside disrespect!

expressisverbis wrote:
Ok. Better to be called a "tigresse" than a "gazelle", right?

Gazelles are timid. Are you timid?

expressisverbis wrote:
I don't "like", I "agree". If our colleague made a remark directly to you that's because she saw something coming from you she didn't like, and she paid you back in kind. I usually agree with the most part of my colleagues in many threads.

Do you know how many times I've read things here, including some by you, that I strongly object to. Nevertheless, I've always kept silent about them. In another thread, you liked a post that included the word "groupie" in reference to a young woman. Plainly, author of that post was referring to that young woman as "bed & mattress" for 3 guys. I wanted to object to what he wrote and to what you liked, but then I decided to remain quiet about it. Remaining quiet is a form of objection, and way better then objecting impolitely like it has been happening towards my posts in this thread.

I'm always cautious about what I write here and elsewhere. If you go through my posts on this forum, you will find that most of them were related to translation topics. I always tried to stay away from leisure threads here. At one point, I even had a nice joke about "women can't carry washing machine" and "number of orifices"; but, I knew some will be rude like I have seen today, and others will be melodramatic also like I have seen today, so I kept the joke to myself.

Objecting can be done either by responding politely or by not responding at all. Rude and atrocious objections are nothing but confiscation of other people's right to contribute on this forum, a horrible practice that is being done by few on this forum who treat it like their own personal property.

expressisverbis wrote:
No, I think you are mistaken in that “rhetoric”. Read the newspapers, please. There is a high number of women being killed by men.

No, you are the mistaken one. The kind of women that abuse men aren't the same women in the news you are referring to.

expressisverbis wrote:
There was a moment when I felt something strange was going on. One of the ladies was telling the others that I needed to leave the room for a few moments. It was a specific time in the afternoon for doing a specific task.

They were wrong in doing that. But, I'm guessing they didn't want you to be uncomfortable watching them. And, they were also idiots in assuming you couldn't understand Arabic.

expressisverbis wrote:
There was an old man in charge of the luggage, and I remember I was more than an hour waiting for him to pick my things.

That's neither sexism nor racism, he is just lazy and incompetent. Locals suffer from things like these on a daily basis.

expressisverbis wrote:
Then, he asked: You are a foreigner, where do you come from? From Iran?
When I told him I was Portuguese he smiled... I have not understood this reaction very well at that time, but… if I was Iranian what would be the problem with that?

In my own city, where I was born and raised, some local schmuck would come to me, in passing, and inquire about my native city and when I confirm it's the same city we're standing in he would think I'm lying. And, some foreign schmucks are strongly convinced I'm from Upper Egypt (Sa'eid) and wouldn't believe otherwise. The hotel porter was simply comparing your facial features to ones he has seen in Iranians. He was chatty, but harmless.

expressisverbis wrote:
As you can clearly see, men and women can be very evil and they do not play fair... in every place of the world!

Maybe stay away from the word "evil", it's reserved for religious fanatic schmucks!


 

Zibow Retailleau  Identity Verified
Maurice, république de
Local time: 00:51
Membre (2019)
anglais vers chinois
+ ...
. Oct 25, 2020

Sadek_A wrote:

you would accept me calling the above statements of yours [blah blah blah]?


Sure, you have every right to call what I said rubbish.

Because I can shred them one by one! But, I WON'T.


Oh? By all means, please do! What good is an argument if it can not be challenged?

Your remark actually helped strengthen the point brought forward by the first post of this thread!


Please forgive my ignorance. How so? Could you please elaborate?

[Edited at 2020-10-25 16:48 GMT]


expressisverbis
Mervyn Henderson
 

Sadek_A  Identity Verified
Local time: 15:51
anglais vers arabe
+ ...
let it go Oct 25, 2020

Zibow Retailleau wrote:
Sure, you have every right to call what I said rubbish.

I won't, though.

Zibow Retailleau wrote:
Oh? By all means, please do! What good is an argument if it can not be challenged?

I'm always all for a good argumentation, but only on a level playing field, which means 1) no ganging against a single individual 2) no support (likes to/agreeing with) for rude remarks for the mere purpose of undermining that single individual 3) and definitely no conspiring with the venue at which the argumentation is to take place. Crusade-style is something from the past, and something shameful to say the least!

Zibow Retailleau wrote:
Please forgive me ignorance. How so? Could you please elaborate?

I already did. Some women dishing out hurtful remarks they deem unharmful, which was the point of the first post in this thread.


 
Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Removed by poster

expressisverbis
Portugal
Local time: 20:51
Membre (2015)
anglais vers portugais
+ ...
You made your point, and you have your opinion Oct 25, 2020

Sadek_A wrote:

Some women abuse their own kids, what wouldn't they do to a stranger male? The woman isn't, and can't be, the symbol of innocence. We are all humans and have to respect each other and play fair by the same rules.


But, I'm sorry to say, it seems to me that you keep insisting on "Pandora myth", and your words are only serving as an attack on women.


Mervyn Henderson
Zibow Retailleau
P.L.F.Persio
Kay Denney
 

expressisverbis
Portugal
Local time: 20:51
Membre (2015)
anglais vers portugais
+ ...
To all Adams and Eves: Oct 25, 2020

A man who treats a woman like a princess is raised by queen
This is a woman in power that's all
It's the intuition I guess

Your love, your heart, your soul, your smile
Your look, your touch, your strength, your style
At home, at work you gave your all
You're always there whenever we call
Been there since day one
I'm your Adam, you're my Eve
I'm your king, you're my queen
I accomplish, you achieve
But, we can't live without
... See more
A man who treats a woman like a princess is raised by queen
This is a woman in power that's all
It's the intuition I guess

Your love, your heart, your soul, your smile
Your look, your touch, your strength, your style
At home, at work you gave your all
You're always there whenever we call
Been there since day one
I'm your Adam, you're my Eve
I'm your king, you're my queen
I accomplish, you achieve
But, we can't live without ya
We can't be without ya
Whenever we're down you lift us up, we never doubt ya
A mother, a teacher, a nurse
She got the remedy when it hurts at first
Plus a business woman that holds her own
More than ten men combined to do one role
All the ladies stand up, let your voice be heard
I salute you, 'cause you earn what you deserve
Taking care of the world from your man to your kids
Goodess of the universe, so this is for my ladies

My ladies, my beautiful woman
Much love 'cause you been there, since the beginning
You might disagree but you gotta believe
That Adam can't live without Eve
Beside every great man is a great woman
Yeah, you gotta believe
That Adam can't be without Eve

Your warmth is so comfortable to the soul, my lady
Beautiful, powerful, plus you're independent my lady
So don't let no one put you down or do you wrong my lady
My soulmate, my everything
'Cause through good and the bad, the thick and the thin you never!!

My ladies, my beautiful woman
Much love 'cause you been there, since the beginning
You might disagree but you gotta believe
That Adam can't live without Eve
Beside every great man is a great woman
Yeah, you gotta believe
That Adam can't be without Eve

So you have the right to be
The right to express yourself
'Cause you got the hardest job in the world period
And we really appreciate all what you do
So can someone tell me, can you really live without them?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UysegeNC4bE
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Mervyn Henderson
P.L.F.Persio
 

Gerard Barry
Allemagne
Local time: 21:51
allemand vers anglais
AUTEUR DU FIL
Girl power! Oct 25, 2020

@expressisverbis: Okay, we get it: women are better than men and we are far more dependent on you than the other way around.

Sadek_A
 

Maxi Schwarz  Identity Verified
Local time: 14:51
allemand vers anglais
+ ...
Gerald, join us? Oct 26, 2020

How about going the independent route. Then you don't have to deal with these politics. Your customer base, projects, and earnings come from your own merit and actions. It's the very reason why I didn't understand your thread in the beginning - because that's not the world of the independent translator.

Btw, the rapper that was presented also has a lovely song dedicated to his father. (and another to his mother) I discovered someone new there.


P.L.F.Persio
Gerard Barry
expressisverbis
marijaflora
 

Jean Dimitriadis  Identity Verified
Membre
anglais vers français
+ ...
Join the resistance  Oct 26, 2020

Personal experiences aside, and anyone having worked in an office environment might have bitter stories to tell, sweeping generalizations (of the type “women are this”, “men are that”, “we this”, “they that”) are hardly defendable, if not for the fact these refer to fictional communities (I for one don’t want anything to do with a “community of men” just because I happen to have a dick, and no one can include me in such a “we” and claim to represent me).

Fe
... See more
Personal experiences aside, and anyone having worked in an office environment might have bitter stories to tell, sweeping generalizations (of the type “women are this”, “men are that”, “we this”, “they that”) are hardly defendable, if not for the fact these refer to fictional communities (I for one don’t want anything to do with a “community of men” just because I happen to have a dick, and no one can include me in such a “we” and claim to represent me).

Few gender differences are based on the biological level, most rather being the result of social structures and norms (which explains the extreme variety of male and female representations across different historic or contemporary cultures and societies). Having to conform to social norms about what is seen as “male” and “female” behavior is a recipe for misery for anyone who doesn’t fit into the mold.

Well, guess what, those social norms and structures are changing, in the same societies that have fostered institutionalized patriarchy and male dominance for so long.

Abusive behaviors can be found across the board/spectrum, especially when there is a majority or a hierarchy at play. Power is what it is. Yes, there may be a danger for an institutionalized female dominance, and I am sure some may have such an agenda, but hopefully emancipation movements are not just about identity politics and who’s on top.

As long as we also remember some of the worst crimes have been made in the name of “humanity”…

So, you can fight the system from within if you wish so, but I would side with Maxi Schwarz: You can simply leave all that corporate bullshit behind and join the resistance. From a freelance vantage point, things are looking pretty good. There’s no one to boss you around. And you can manspread all you want from the luxury of your home office, if that’s what floats your boat.



[Edited at 2020-10-26 09:35 GMT]
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P.L.F.Persio
Chris S
Zibow Retailleau
Mervyn Henderson
expressisverbis
Irene McClure
Marina Taffetani
 

P.L.F.Persio  Identity Verified
Pays-Bas
Local time: 21:51
Membre (2010)
anglais vers italien
+ ...
Chapeau, Jean! Oct 26, 2020

Jean Dimitriadis wrote:

Personal experiences aside, and anyone having worked in an office environment might have bitter stories to tell, sweeping generalizations (of the type “women are this”, “men are that”, “we this”, “they that”) are hardly defendable, if not for the fact these refer to fictional communities (I for one don’t want anything to do with a “community of men” just because I happen to have a dick, and no one can include me in such a “we” and claim to represent me).

Few gender differences are based on the biological level, most rather being the result of social structures and norms (which explains the extreme variety of male and female representations across different historic or contemporary cultures and societies). Having to conform to social norms about what is seen as “male” and “female” behavior is a recipe for misery for anyone who doesn’t fall into the mold.

Well, guess what, those social norms and structures are changing, in the same societies that have fostered institutionalized patriarchy and male dominance for so long.

Abusive behaviors can be found across the board/spectrum, especially when there is a majority or a hierarchy at play. Power is what it is. Yes, there may be a danger for an institutionalized female dominance, and I am sure some may have such an agenda, but hopefully emancipation movements are not just about identity politics and who’s on top.

As long as we also remember some of the worst crimes have been made in the name of “humanity”…

So, you can fight the system from within if you wish so, but I would side with Maxi Schwarz: You can simply leave all that corporate bullshit behind and join the resistance. From a freelance vantage point, things are looking pretty good. There’s no one to boss you around. And you can manspread all you want from the luxury of your home office, if that’s what floats your boat.



Jean Dimitriadis
Mervyn Henderson
expressisverbis
 
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