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"Diversity" in the translation industry
Auteur du fil: Gerard Barry

Maxi Schwarz  Identity Verified
Local time: 02:36
allemand vers anglais
+ ...
Gerard - checked Oct 7, 2020

Gerard Barry wrote:

@Maxi: Yes, I work in-house. I thought I mentioned that in my original post.


I just checked back. OP (original post)

As a man working in the translation sector , it's pretty obvious that a) the number of men working in the field is very small and b) there are no efforts on anyone's part to change this. Yet when women are underrepresented in any field (and even when they are very well represented!), there are are all sorts of initiatives to increase their numbers. I'd be interested in hearing anyone else's thought on this matter, but I'd like especially to hear from other men how you find working in a female-dominated industry and having to put up with casual and institutionalised sexism from female colleagues, and employers.

That's the entire thing. I have highlighted the only references I found on "where": "translation sector", "industry". For me with my background, and all the translators I know, the "translation sector", and "industry" is mostly populated by self-employed people. That is why I couldn't make head or tails of what you were saying initially. Now it's more clear.

Fwiw, I want to see people hired based on ability. You can get a lot of stereotypes and assumptions getting in the way, and also other unfair things - but that is what I'd like to see. I stepped out of anything "institutional" or run by others a long time ago, because I saw a lot of stupidity. It's probably the reason why a lot of us opted for independence. This is no solution for your immediate problem ofc.

Re: "man flu" or whatever that was - no, it's not funny. Respect and consideration has to go both ways. Just like all the memes about "stupid" men who can't take care of their children, and all the silly things these inept fools do. This is where those of us who are women should speak up.

Anyway, I hope you manage to get this sorted. (You could always join the fold of the self-employed. )


Oleksandr Ivanov
Gerard Barry
Liviu-Lee Roth
 

Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 09:36
Membre (2018)
français vers anglais
. Oct 7, 2020

Gerard Barry wrote:

Having said that, there is an obvious risk that, because of "diversity-based" hiring, less competent and/or less experienced women and non-white people COULD be hired and/or promoted on the basis of their sex and/or skin colour. After all, if a company has "diversity targets" to achieve and if they want to show how "progressive" they are, it's quite possible that - at least in come cases - they'll pay more attention to the sex and/or skin colour of the job applicant / candidate for promotion than to their qualifications and/or experience. If companies don't want to be accused of doing this, they might want to rethink their obsession with so-called "diversity".


On the other hand, what "diversity hiring" will certainly ensure is that people will no longer be hired simply because they are white and have an extra member, which is the problem it is aiming to deal with.


Chris S
Sheila Wilson
Becca Resnik
P.L.F.Persio
 

Michael Wetzel  Identity Verified
Allemagne
Local time: 09:36
allemand vers anglais
Last words ... Oct 7, 2020

First of all, thank you for responding politely where I had descended into a provocative tone.

Gerard Barry wrote:

This is NOT what I said in my email to the "diversity person" at work (I honestly can't remember her exact title). My exact words were: "Good to know that [company name] is no longer hiring on the basis of merit, but rather on immutable characteristics such as sex, race, etc.". You can interpret this statement whatever way you like but it is not the same as saying that the women and non-white people at my company are less competent than the white men.


This is where we disagree: I don't think it's possible for us to validly interpret this statement whatever way we like. I was wrong that your statement necessarily applies to current colleagues and I take that back, but how could the diversity person read this and not see that you will consider the merit of anyone promoted or hired in the future to be suspect unless they are a white male or the company changes its diversity policy? Those are not your words and those are probably not even your thoughts, but that is unavoidably one of the things that the email says. Some things are open to (valid) interpretation, some things are not.

I've gotten all kinds of things mixed up in my posts here through hypocrisy and by conflating affirmative action, diversity and the tie-breaker preferential treatment that is common in Germany. Lincoln also reminded me of the Harvard admissions scandal (there's a great article by Jay Caspian Kang), which is a wonderfully messy illustration of some of the problems associated with these issues in the US.
So, I'm trying to hear what you're saying while making it clear that what you're saying is fundamentally objectionable and, more importantly, incorrect. It is incorrect to separate merit from context. It is incorrect to pretend that distributing chances unevenly and then seeing "how the cookie crumbles" is a valid concept of meritocracy. Gender and race are very imperfect proxies for context, but they are better than nothing. Diversity and affirmative action are very poor substitutes for actually fixing the causes of unequal chances, but they are a good stopgap for the moment.

I've invested far too much of my time (and too much of your patience) in what is a thought experiment for me and a deeply personal issue for you (the quality of your workplace - the place where most of us spend more time than anywhere else), so I will be quiet again and get back to work.


Becca Resnik
 

Tom in London
Royaume-Uni
Local time: 08:36
Membre (2008)
italien vers anglais
Ah, the workplace, the workplace.... Oct 7, 2020

I'm so glad I got away from the workplace and started working from home.

Chris S
Michael Wetzel
Gerard Barry
Sheila Wilson
Mervyn Henderson
Becca Resnik
marijaflora
 

Gerard Barry
Allemagne
Local time: 09:36
allemand vers anglais
AUTEUR DU FIL
I know what you mean Oct 8, 2020

Tom in London wrote:

I'm so glad I got away from the workplace and started working from home.


I know what you mean. The stupidity within large companies is utterly soul-destroying. Just to give an example: our company will in future be holding online "implicit bias training". What a joke!


 

marijaflora
Australie
Local time: 17:36
Membre (2020)
bosniaque vers anglais
+ ...
sexism? Oct 21, 2020

I have not read the whole thread, so I am sorry if you mentioned it elsewhere, but exactly what sort of sexism and discrimination are you experiencing?

I think a lot of men would be happy to work within a predominantly female industry;)
Unless you are suggesting that Germany has become like the USA and has fallen for political correctness ideology etc?

Regarding diversity hiring, you might find these articles amusing. While no related to Translator work, perhaps t
... See more
I have not read the whole thread, so I am sorry if you mentioned it elsewhere, but exactly what sort of sexism and discrimination are you experiencing?

I think a lot of men would be happy to work within a predominantly female industry;)
Unless you are suggesting that Germany has become like the USA and has fallen for political correctness ideology etc?

Regarding diversity hiring, you might find these articles amusing. While no related to Translator work, perhaps there is some imbalance in the cultural climate in the USA if it's got to the level where non-blacks are pretending to be blacks for jobs and/or social recognition......

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8715899/Jessica-Krug-resigns-George-Washington-University-pretending-black.html
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8749525/BLM-activist-Indiana-admits-race-faker-posing-black-person-years.html


[Edited at 2020-10-21 15:21 GMT]

[Edited at 2020-10-21 16:05 GMT]
Collapse


Gerard Barry
 

Lincoln Hui  Identity Verified
Hong Kong
Local time: 15:36
Membre
chinois vers anglais
+ ...
. Oct 22, 2020

Marijaflora wrote:

I think a lot of men would be happy to work within a predominantly female industry;)

I will make a blanket statement that this is blatantly false for literally every single predominantly female industry in current existence. I dare you to find even one counter-example.

[Edited at 2020-10-22 10:59 GMT]


 

Chris S  Identity Verified
Royaume-Uni
suédois vers anglais
+ ...
?! Oct 22, 2020

Lincoln Hui wrote:

Marijaflora wrote:

I think a lot of men would be happy to work within a predominantly female industry;)

I will make a blanket statement that this is blatantly false for literally every single predominantly female industry in current existence. I dare you to find even one counter-example.

[Edited at 2020-10-22 10:59 GMT]


Well, I am one such example.

Or have I misunderstood what you are trying to say?


Kay Denney
 

Tom in London
Royaume-Uni
Local time: 08:36
Membre (2008)
italien vers anglais
The level Oct 22, 2020

Marijaflora wrote:

.... if it's got to the level where non-blacks are pretending to be blacks for jobs and/or social recognition......



if it's got to the level of believing what the Daily Mail says..... here we call it the Daily Fail.


marijaflora
P.L.F.Persio
 

Matthias Brombach  Identity Verified
Allemagne
Local time: 09:36
Membre (2007)
néerlandais vers allemand
+ ...
"Proud Boys, .. Oct 22, 2020

Marijaflora wrote:


Unless you are suggesting that Germany has become like the USA and has fallen for political correctness ideology etc?


... stand back and stand by ..."*

*Quote by Donald Trump


P.L.F.Persio
 

Lincoln Hui  Identity Verified
Hong Kong
Local time: 15:36
Membre
chinois vers anglais
+ ...
. Oct 22, 2020

Chris S wrote:

Lincoln Hui wrote:

Marijaflora wrote:

I think a lot of men would be happy to work within a predominantly female industry;)

I will make a blanket statement that this is blatantly false for literally every single predominantly female industry in current existence. I dare you to find even one counter-example.

[Edited at 2020-10-22 10:59 GMT]


Well, I am one such example.

Or have I misunderstood what you are trying to say?

I said, predominantly female industry.


 

Chris S  Identity Verified
Royaume-Uni
suédois vers anglais
+ ...
?! Oct 22, 2020

Lincoln Hui wrote:
I said, predominantly female industry.

I know what you said. What I was wondering was what exactly you meant.

I’ve worked happily in several industries where the vast majority of workers are women.


Kay Denney
 

marijaflora
Australie
Local time: 17:36
Membre (2020)
bosniaque vers anglais
+ ...
True Oct 22, 2020

Tom in London wrote:

Marijaflora wrote:

.... if it's got to the level where non-blacks are pretending to be blacks for jobs and/or social recognition......



if it's got to the level of believing what the Daily Mail says..... here we call it the Daily Fail.


Yes, but if it's not on the Daily Fail it's not worth knowing;)


 

marijaflora
Australie
Local time: 17:36
Membre (2020)
bosniaque vers anglais
+ ...
flight attendant? Oct 22, 2020

Lincoln Hui wrote:

Marijaflora wrote:

I think a lot of men would be happy to work within a predominantly female industry;)

I will make a blanket statement that this is blatantly false for literally every single predominantly female industry in current existence. I dare you to find even one counter-example.

[Edited at 2020-10-22 10:59 GMT]


Flight attendants?

Seriously though, but why? Why would men rather work in a predominantly male workplace then be surrounded by females?



[Edited at 2020-10-22 14:27 GMT]


 

Lincoln Hui  Identity Verified
Hong Kong
Local time: 15:36
Membre
chinois vers anglais
+ ...
Why? Oct 22, 2020

Flight attendants?

Ah, yes, the profession with one of the strongest stigmas against men working in it, not to mention it's a rare breed of human who wants to work such a job to begin with, even without the stigma.

Try a little harder.


Seriously though, but why? Why would men rather work in a predominantly male workplace then be surrounded by females?

Oh, jeez, I don't know, do you live in a world where women would rather work in a predominantly male workplace than be surrounded by females?

[Edited at 2020-10-22 14:58 GMT]


 
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