| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9] > | Turn-key translations? Thread poster: writeaway
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PRen (X)
Canada
Local time: 17:55
French to English
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| You're right | Jul 19, 2009 |
ScottishWildCat wrote: Eric Hahn wrote:
They should add the steps of receiving several quotes and of paying in advance. AFAIR, payments must be made in advance and the rates offered to the client (I assume by P.) are non-negotiable. If I understood the whole thing as it should be, there is an automatic device that will be "knocking at the doors" of P members until it finds the perfect match.
According to "About ProZ.com turn-key translation", "The prices are fixed, so there is no negotiation. Clients pay in advance and payment is guaranteed by ProZ.com -- it is not even necessary to invoice. The job can be reviewed in its entirety before acceptance, and payment is made shortly after completion."
Just off the top of my head: I think this is the only time I've been asked to pay for goods/services in advance, before I have a chance to check the quality of the thing.
No invoicing - what about record keeping? I've paid $15.15 for a translation, but have no receipt. The translator has not issued an invoice. Problems with the taxman anyone?
The job CAN be reviewed - not WILL be reviewed. And in the event is is reviewed (which I assume will happen only if there is a complaint about the translation), who will review it? The same people determining who gets PRO status? Yikes.
As is usual on this site, it's implement first, think later. But I suspect that all along Henry has been following a plan, and it looks like making the move to becoming an agency is the latest (or ultimate) step.
IMO, any paying member who agrees to translate for the turnkey service (perhaps turkey would be a more appropriate moniker) is wilfully participating in their own exploitation. As for any further threads by members screaming about rates...
[Edited at 2009-07-19 11:43 GMT]
| | | | | Right, Heike | Jul 19, 2009 |
Heike Behl, Ph.D. wrote:
Any qualified translator I know will be much too busy with their regular clients to be interested in "short, quick-turnaround" translation jobs ..................
..............
Somehow, I can't get the image of a translation sweat shop out of my mind...
Exactly.
Giuliana
| | | | Helen Shiner 
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:55
German to English
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| ScottishWildCat | Jul 19, 2009 |
ScottishWildCat wrote: Helen Shiner wrote:
I would certainly not be happy to be funding something that gives clients a second rate product, and pays translators appalling rates. I hope those over on the PRO forum have the sense to see that this is serving them badly, too, and that the loss of many excellent, well-respected non-PRO translators will only serve to devalue the whole reputation and tenor of Proz.com. The fact that there is no openness on this score really is not on. Is that not what is called a "free market"? Nothing personal, Helen, but I can remember of recent fora posts in which the concept of the translation market as a "completely free" one was defended heavily and even in a ballistic fashion. Like it or not (I have made my choice), the Turnkey offer is one of the expressions of this free market on ProZ. And I hardly know of a blue-eyed customer/client refusing such an offer, in which everything is secured + covered with the credibility ProZ still has. Laurent K. [Edited at 2009-07-19 11:35 GMT]
Actually there is no irony whatsoever in what I wrote, bitter or otherwise. And I think you'll find that the concept of a free market is that no-one is excluded contrary to this turnkey set-up.
| | | | Jessica Noyes
United States
Local time: 16:55
Member
Spanish to English
+ ...
| I hope badge people will keep this thread up to date | Jul 19, 2009 |
I appreciate the efforts of the pros who are keeping the information flowing, so that those of us who can't see the pro site at least know what is being said.
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Helen Shiner
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:55
German to English
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the comments by Heike, Guiliana and Jessica.
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 22:55
French to German
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Helen Shiner wrote:
Actually there is no irony whatsoever in what I wrote, bitter or otherwise. And I think you'll find that the concept of a free market is that no-one is excluded contrary to this turnkey set-up.
The irony was mine. And I could tell about some examples in which some competitors are excluded for whatever reason the "client" may think of.
[Edited at 2009-07-19 15:21 GMT]
| | | | writeaway
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Can a site divided still stand? And what about transparency? | Jul 19, 2009 |
2.4 Actions previously considered and declined There are proposals that we have considered and opted not to adopt. Here is a list, with explanations: .... [-] Act as a meta-agency. ProZ.com has a clear mission - posted at http://www.proz.com/siteteam - and acting as a service provider is not within it. We make the business of translation more efficient and enjoyable--but we don't translate.
ProZ.com overview and action plan (#1 of 8): Sourcing (ie. jobs / directory)
By Henry D | Published 10/3/2006 |
http://www.proz.com/translation-articles/articles/956/1/ProZ.com-overview-and-action-plan-(#1-of-8):-Sourcing-(ie.-jobs-{47}-directory)#misconceptions
Things have changed and announcements to the entire "Proz community" seem to be a thing of the past.
What's more disheartening is that site now seems to be forever divided into 2 distinct groups. Those with a P, who have been approved (of) by SiteStaff. The P people have a clearly 'most-favoured folks' status and are now part of an apparently separate, secretive Proz community. And if it's not secretive or they aren't sworn to secrecy, why did they know about the turn-key idea but none of the rest of us? Is the site purposely trying to make the P folks (and potential customers) believe they are better than pros without the badge?
Let's remember what P badges represent in terms of translation skills, in the words of those distributing them:
> 2 - How good of a translator does one have to be to be admitted into
> the program? Is the idea that only elite translators will be admitted?
> [Direct link]
>
> No. The screening process seeks to establish only that an applicant meets or exceeds certain minimum professional standards in the three screening areas (translation ability, business reliability and citizenship. In other words, the level screened for is not elite but adequate.
> http://www.proz.com/pro-tag/info/faq
My question: What's next on the Proz.com translation agency agenda?
Any explanations forthcoming from the site decision-makers?
| | | | | Formal Request to Site Management | Jul 19, 2009 |
Could you please unlock the relevant thread in the PRO forum -- or whatever it's actually called -- so that we 'lesser mortals' can at least read what is being said?
After all, if the idea is a good one -- and we are all, in fact, jumping to unfounded conclusions here -- it may convince some of us to sign up to the scheme, right?
I find it a tad disappointing that we are being kept out the loop on this one.
Anyone here, please feel free to second (third, f... See more Could you please unlock the relevant thread in the PRO forum -- or whatever it's actually called -- so that we 'lesser mortals' can at least read what is being said?
After all, if the idea is a good one -- and we are all, in fact, jumping to unfounded conclusions here -- it may convince some of us to sign up to the scheme, right?
I find it a tad disappointing that we are being kept out the loop on this one.
Anyone here, please feel free to second (third, fourth ...) this formal request.
[Edited at 2009-07-19 14:04 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 13:55
English to German
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In memoriam | Count me in. | Jul 19, 2009 |
Lawyer-Linguist wrote:
Anyone here, please feel free to second (third, fourth ...) this formal request.
I am highly interested in what all those colleagues whom I helped to obtain their P-badge are discussing all day long. Now that I am a lesser one because I never bothered and because I have other things to do.
| | | | Helen Shiner
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:55
German to English
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| Count me in, too. | Jul 19, 2009 |
Well said, Lawyer-Linguist.
| | | | John Rawlins
Spain
Local time: 22:55
Spanish to English
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| A ticking bomb... | Jul 19, 2009 |
Whatever the merits of 'turn-key translations', the idea of excluding fee-paying members from even viewing another forum is unnecessary and divisive. I can see know no reason to justify any secrecy for the PRO forum - and such secrecy only serves as a ticking bomb under Proz.
| | | | RobinB
United States
Local time: 15:55
German to English
| Taxes, anybody? | Jul 19, 2009 |
Lawyer-Linguist wrote: It actually looks like it may have been quite a bit less than ten bucks.
Or even less than that. For translators resident in the EU who are VAT-registered, the picture looks even more gloomy. It doesn't matter if their client in this transaction is "ProZ Europe" or "ProZ USA", they're going to have to add VAT at their national rate to the fee they receive from ProZ, but because the ProZ fee paid is gross of all tax, that means they actually have to deduct it from the gross amount paid and remit it to the tax authorities. Normally, they would sidestep this payment by simultaneously reclaiming the same amount as input tax, but they can't do that because they don't issue an invoice. So, with an average VAT rate in the EU of around 20%, that's another two bucks or so knocked of the effective fee receipt.
But in fact, that's surely entirely academic in the first place. It's a rule in most, or possibly even all, OECD countries that invoices must be issued for business services rendered. Some countries' national tax authorities may allow exceptions, e.g. for automated EDI-based transactions that run on approved computer systems that establish an end-to-end audit trail, but that's certainly not the case here with the ProZ's very own spelling mistake.
But, according to ProZ (http://www.proz.com/faq/5573#5573), "it is not even necessary to invoice".
Really?
I'm pretty sure that translators have to issue invoices for their work, and these invoices have to comply with the legal requirements in their country of residence (and, possibly, with additional requirements in the destination country as well). I'm sure that whoever drafted the statement referred to above didn't intend it to be interpreted this way, but I can imagine the tax people looking at it and licking their lips. It certainly *looks* like an invitation to tax evasion.....
On another note, I really don't think the world needs yet another online translation agency. There are too many agencies chasing too little business in the first place, which means that plenty of them are popping out of existence all the time. That shouldn't be seen as an invitation to start up another agency to replace them, but should rather sound a note of caution, begging the question of why so many agencies are going out of business in the first place. The agency layer of the translation market is long overdue for a massive shake-out, and I'm quite convinced that agency models that don't add any significant value (such as the ProZ "Turn-off translations" offering) will not be around for very long.
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Jessica Noyes
United States
Local time: 16:55
Member
Spanish to English
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| I second Lawyer Linguist's motion | Jul 19, 2009 |
Inquiring minds want to know.
| | | | | Yes, of course | Jul 19, 2009 |
RobinB wrote: Lawyer-Linguist wrote: It actually looks like it may have been quite a bit less than ten bucks. Or even less than that. For translators resident in the EU who are VAT-registered, the picture looks even more gloomy. It doesn't matter if their client in this transaction is "ProZ Europe" or "ProZ USA", they're going to have to add VAT at their national rate to the fee they receive from ProZ, but because the ProZ fee paid is gross of all tax, that means they actually have to deduct it from the gross amount paid and remit it to the tax authorities. Normally, they would sidestep this payment by simultaneously reclaiming the same amount as input tax, but they can't do that because they don't issue an invoice. So, with an average VAT rate in the EU of around 20%, that's another two bucks or so knocked of the effective fee receipt.
Excellent point Robin.
Another turn-off indeed
| | | | | Nothing secretive | Jul 19, 2009 |
For the record, I'm one of those red P holders, was asked to participate and got one in the very early stage, didn't have to add anything I hadn't already provided before, so why not. Still, I don't think I am more qualified than anyone with my qualifications without a red P or vice versa. My idea of what is that red P worth from the start was that anyone with a red P stating in his/her profile to be member of association X or having a diploma, PhD or whatever title X, *did* have it (credentials... See more For the record, I'm one of those red P holders, was asked to participate and got one in the very early stage, didn't have to add anything I hadn't already provided before, so why not. Still, I don't think I am more qualified than anyone with my qualifications without a red P or vice versa. My idea of what is that red P worth from the start was that anyone with a red P stating in his/her profile to be member of association X or having a diploma, PhD or whatever title X, *did* have it (credentials provided by recognized entities are verified, meaning that a copy of those has to be provided). This was the added value I saw in the red P in the very early stage. Until now I couldn't witness any other added value, but I am one out of an < indefinite > number of red Ps, so maybe other red P holders have different experiences.
To be perfectly honest, I find the sort of resentment I read thru the lines here targeting those red P holders somehow out of place, as it sounds to me like a shooting the messenger instead of the author of the message: anyone can apply, what the "program developers" grant to red P holders can't be seen as something to blame the red P holders for. If I deemed something as "not interesting for me", "don't care" or I dismiss for whatever reason, I do not waste any more time with it. And I am not interested in what those, who find it interesting, worthwhile, etc., do or read or say.
There is nothing secretive going on, sometimes a new thread is started (rarely) and those threads are about the quality of the screening process and.... well, I can't remember nothing special, the most interesting threads are here on the public forums, believe me. I did read the first posting about turnkey jobs, found that new job "nuance" not appealing for me personally, so I didn't tick the track-this-thread box. It reminded me of old Instant Jobs, a re-visited old and somehow new format, and of another one an outsourcer friend of mine tested... well, another two reasons for me to find the new nuance not appealing (subjectively, for me).
Giuliana
[Edited at 2009-07-19 14:27 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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