Jan 9, 2019 21:32
5 yrs ago
11 viewers *
French term
dérive (here)
French to English
Medical
Economics
public health/health econonomics
This is from a discussion about knowing whether open science means better science. The sentence is as follows: Chaque pratique émergente porte en soi des enjeux économiques avec des dérives potentielles. "Enjeux et dérives" seems to be a common turn of phrase when talking about the social challenges of technological progress, but I don't quite understand what the "dérive" part means.
Proposed translations
(English)
Proposed translations
+7
45 mins
Selected
...and may) veer off course / take a different turn
Perfectly defined by Bijan. These might work here.
I.e the intrinsic economic implications may have this effect.
I.e the intrinsic economic implications may have this effect.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Barbara Cochran, MFA
36 mins
|
agree |
Eliza Hall
: In the original sentence, it needs slightly different syntax: with the potential for [or risk of] veering off course.
37 mins
|
agree |
Tony M
: And with Eliza's comment...
1 hr
|
agree |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: The negative inference is sufficiently strong for it to be said: "veer off course" has that, as wld "to go off the rails". "Take a different turn" is more open and loses some of the negative connotation I think is needed in English.
12 hrs
|
agree |
B D Finch
13 hrs
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agree |
Kim Metzger
14 hrs
|
agree |
Yvonne Gallagher
1 day 14 hrs
|
neutral |
Mpoma
: Please see my answer. I think dérive is more forceful, implying a course which is just wrong, and must be abandoned.
3 days 18 hrs
|
neutral |
SafeTex
: The translation may be fine but I can't see such a long term being used each time "dérive" is mentioned.
3 days 19 hrs
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
+1
5 hrs
unintended consequences
In the social sciences, unintended consequences (sometimes unanticipated consequences or unforeseen consequences) are outcomes that are not the ones foreseen and intended by a purposeful action. The term was popularised in the twentieth century by American sociologist Robert K. Merton.[1]
Unintended consequences can be grouped into three types:
Unexpected benefit: A positive unexpected benefit (also referred to as luck, serendipity or a windfall).
Unexpected drawback: An unexpected detriment occurring in addition to the desired effect of the policy (e.g., while irrigation schemes provide people with water for agriculture, they can increase waterborne diseases that have devastating health effects, such as schistosomiasis).
Perverse result: A perverse effect contrary to what was originally intended (when an intended solution makes a problem worse). This is sometimes referred to as 'backfire'.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintended_consequences
Unintended consequences can be grouped into three types:
Unexpected benefit: A positive unexpected benefit (also referred to as luck, serendipity or a windfall).
Unexpected drawback: An unexpected detriment occurring in addition to the desired effect of the policy (e.g., while irrigation schemes provide people with water for agriculture, they can increase waterborne diseases that have devastating health effects, such as schistosomiasis).
Perverse result: A perverse effect contrary to what was originally intended (when an intended solution makes a problem worse). This is sometimes referred to as 'backfire'.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintended_consequences
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Tony M
: All you say is along the right lines, yet IMHO still misses the point slightly; certainly a 'dérive' might be said to be 'perverse' — but it often indicates some potentially deliberate course of action, rather than a fortuitous side-effect.
4 hrs
|
neutral |
ormiston
: it feels less like a repercussion than the PATH it takes (not always deliberate)
6 hrs
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agree |
Mpoma
: As you are a native French speaker I'd like to know your opinion of my suggestion (below). Your answer seems close, but seems to me to lack any idea of "intentionality": doesn't a dérive imply some *deliberate*, flawed action by an agent?
3 days 14 hrs
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NO! dérive means drifting from the goal or objective
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+1
11 hrs
diversions/detours/deviations
Chaque pratique émergente porte en soi des enjeux économiques avec des dérives potentielles. L’Open data pose évidemment des questions éthiques, sous l'angle des données personnelles.
=>
Each emerging practice has its own economic stakes/issues with potential diversions/detours/deviations. Open data obviously raises ethical questions, from the point of view of personal data.
Sounds negative on the first glance, but is this true? I don’t know. All depends on the further context.
A detour or (British English: diversion) is a (normally temporary) route taking traffic around an area of prohibited or reduced access, such as a construction site.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detour
In statistics, the standard deviation (SD, also represented by the lower case Greek letter sigma σ or the Latin letter s) is a measure that is used to quantify the amount of variation or dispersion of a set of data values.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation
Do not forget to consider either:
Le professeur a demandé aux élèves de dériver cette fonction pour en connaître le sens de variation.
The professor asked the students to derive this function in order to find the direction of change.
http://www.wordreference.com/fren/dérives
The primary objects of study in differential calculus are the derivative of a function, related notions such as the differential, and their applications. The derivative of a function at a chosen input value describes the rate of change of the function near that input value.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_calculus
Morphological derivation, in linguistics, is the process of forming a new word from an existing word, often by adding a prefix or suffix, such as -ness or un-. For example, happiness and unhappy derive from the root word happy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphological_derivation
La dérivation lexicale, ou encore dérivation, est un des procédés de formation des mots, au même titre que le néologisme ou l'emprunt. Elle s'inscrit au sein de la morphologie dérivationnelle (ou lexicale).
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dérivation_lexicale
=>
Each emerging practice has its own economic stakes/issues with potential diversions/detours/deviations. Open data obviously raises ethical questions, from the point of view of personal data.
Sounds negative on the first glance, but is this true? I don’t know. All depends on the further context.
A detour or (British English: diversion) is a (normally temporary) route taking traffic around an area of prohibited or reduced access, such as a construction site.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detour
In statistics, the standard deviation (SD, also represented by the lower case Greek letter sigma σ or the Latin letter s) is a measure that is used to quantify the amount of variation or dispersion of a set of data values.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation
Do not forget to consider either:
Le professeur a demandé aux élèves de dériver cette fonction pour en connaître le sens de variation.
The professor asked the students to derive this function in order to find the direction of change.
http://www.wordreference.com/fren/dérives
The primary objects of study in differential calculus are the derivative of a function, related notions such as the differential, and their applications. The derivative of a function at a chosen input value describes the rate of change of the function near that input value.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_calculus
Morphological derivation, in linguistics, is the process of forming a new word from an existing word, often by adding a prefix or suffix, such as -ness or un-. For example, happiness and unhappy derive from the root word happy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphological_derivation
La dérivation lexicale, ou encore dérivation, est un des procédés de formation des mots, au même titre que le néologisme ou l'emprunt. Elle s'inscrit au sein de la morphologie dérivationnelle (ou lexicale).
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dérivation_lexicale
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Chakib Roula
: I would lean to "deviations".
38 mins
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Merci !
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neutral |
Tony M
: Neither of your first 2 suggestions could really be used in the specific context here; like Chakib, I would only consider your 3rd term as a possible contender, though far from being my preferred solution here.
2 hrs
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14 hrs
(potential) slippage
could work to keep the sentence tight
all emerging practices go inherently hand-in-hand with economic challenges that have the potential to go astray
all emerging practices go inherently hand-in-hand with economic challenges that have the potential to go astray
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Tony M
: While I agree with 'go astray' (which indeed I suggested myself), I don't think 'slippage' would be at all correct here; it doesn't have the same negative connotations, and tends to refer to something that "just happens", rather than a course of action.
22 mins
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in projects, slippage is always bad news
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+3
18 hrs
French term (edited):
dérives potentielles
potential pitfalls
the potential pitfall of embracing a religion that turns out to be a sect (dérive sectaire), a political party that turns out to be against democracy (dérive totalitaire), but not the potential pitfall of setting foot on to a continent that turns ot to be moving (dérive des continents)
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Tony M
: Although to some extent this sidesteps the actual term asked, I believe this would be an excellent translation solution in this specific context, hinting as it does at "things that might go wrong"
5 mins
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Thanks! I seem to read "challenges and pitfalls" every other day, so I thought they could ring well together. Don't bother with the source text, it's the target that matters!
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agree |
Mpoma
: Tony puts it very well. I'm not sure that any usage of dérive can really be shoe-horned into "pitfall"... although it *seems* to fit well here. But does it? You are a native French speaker and I'd love to hear what you think of my idea (below).
3 days 1 hr
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Thanks. "dérive" in this context seems very clear to me (I like Tony's "dérapage", perhaps a tad stronger than "dérive"), but as a non-native speaker of English, I am not able to "feel" "blind alley" in its cultural whole...
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agree |
SafeTex
: I like this anyway plus it is very concise.
3 days 1 hr
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3 days 20 hrs
aberrant developments [or] blind alley
Really torn on this one... I think a couple of the answers here are very good, but somehow they all seem to lack something. I've always found dérive a difficult word.
I have found 4 definitions of the figurative use of dérive on the Net:
Wiktionnaire 4 https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/dérive
"Mauvaise direction, mauvaise pente."
Wiktionnaire 8
"Action, en particulier politique, qui diffère de celle annoncée par ceux qui la mènent."
What strikes me about the above 2 figurative definitions is how closely they stick to the original non-figurative definition, Wiktionnaire 1, "Écart, déviation entre le cap effectivement suivi par un navire ou un aéroplane et le cap initialement fixé."
elsewhere:
"déviation progressive et incontrôlée"
"fait de s'éloigner de la normalité"
François Boye's suggestion of "unintended consequences" is close, but not pejorative enough: these must be negative consequences if they are to be considered a dérive, IMHO. As Ormiston says in his comment, the word "consequences" does not convey the idea of a "path taken".
Concerning Wiktionnaire definition 4, taking the "wrong course" made me think of a "blind alley": all the signs are that your efforts to follow this path are worthwhile and will lead somewhere. In fact, no: the results are disappointing or non-existent, and that particular avenue/alley must thus be abandoned.
NB To the objection that a blind alley doesn't lead anywhere, I must respond: "it seems to, until you realise it doesn't... and that could take a very long time"!
Philippe Etienne's "potential pitfalls" seemed great at first sight... and he may well be right when he says "it's the target that matters". I would probably choose his translation to make my life simple ... but I think "pitfalls" is more vague and all-encompassing than dérive which, according to all the definitions I find, implies a dynamic process.
I find I can't choose between my two suggestions... and suggest that the French encompasses both meanings simultaneously!
I have found 4 definitions of the figurative use of dérive on the Net:
Wiktionnaire 4 https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/dérive
"Mauvaise direction, mauvaise pente."
Wiktionnaire 8
"Action, en particulier politique, qui diffère de celle annoncée par ceux qui la mènent."
What strikes me about the above 2 figurative definitions is how closely they stick to the original non-figurative definition, Wiktionnaire 1, "Écart, déviation entre le cap effectivement suivi par un navire ou un aéroplane et le cap initialement fixé."
elsewhere:
"déviation progressive et incontrôlée"
"fait de s'éloigner de la normalité"
François Boye's suggestion of "unintended consequences" is close, but not pejorative enough: these must be negative consequences if they are to be considered a dérive, IMHO. As Ormiston says in his comment, the word "consequences" does not convey the idea of a "path taken".
Concerning Wiktionnaire definition 4, taking the "wrong course" made me think of a "blind alley": all the signs are that your efforts to follow this path are worthwhile and will lead somewhere. In fact, no: the results are disappointing or non-existent, and that particular avenue/alley must thus be abandoned.
NB To the objection that a blind alley doesn't lead anywhere, I must respond: "it seems to, until you realise it doesn't... and that could take a very long time"!
Philippe Etienne's "potential pitfalls" seemed great at first sight... and he may well be right when he says "it's the target that matters". I would probably choose his translation to make my life simple ... but I think "pitfalls" is more vague and all-encompassing than dérive which, according to all the definitions I find, implies a dynamic process.
I find I can't choose between my two suggestions... and suggest that the French encompasses both meanings simultaneously!
Discussion
Example: Maintaining the current environment policy with high carbon dioxide emissions will lead to a climate disaster. Deviating from this dangerous route by reducing emissions may reduce the impact on the temperature rise. In this case it is recommended to deviate from the original way and select new goals.
A pure linguistic consideration cannot solve the question. We should know, wether "open science" is the status-quo to deviate from. I doubt that open science is standard everywhere.
https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&ei=5XM5XOnkGMnKjwT...
https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&ei=8XU5XKjMLp7ijwS...
While the multiple meanings of the verb form can help inform our understanding of the overall notion, they should not be allowed to cloud understyanding of the term as used in a specific context.
derive
a) (dévation) / drift, ~ des continents / continental drift; (lit) à la ~ / adrift; (fig) tout va à la derive / every is going to the dogs ou is going downhill
b) (dispositive) (Aviat) / fin; (Naut) / centre-board
dériver
1 vt rivière / to divert, (chim, Ling, Math) to derive; (Élec) to shunt;
2. vt indir ~ de / to derive from
3. vi (Aviat, Naut) to drift; [orateur] to drift off the subject
dérivé, e
1. Adj derived;
2. 2. Nm (Chim, Ling, Math) derivative; (produit) by-product
3. 3 nf (math) derivative
(Collins/Robert, French Concise Dictionary French – English)
Some significations have a neutral connotation, some do only describe facts not assessing its value or importance.
c « abus » ▶ excess, ▶ abuse
« évolution » ▶ drift
■ dérive droitière/totalitaire : drift towards the right/towards totalitarianism
The example sentence exactly pictures the "dérive" in your text.
misstep noun
1. A clumsy or badly judged step.
‘for a mountain goat one misstep could be fatal’
1.1 North American A mistake or blunder.
‘his campaign has been a farrago of missteps and mixed messages’
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/misstep
mis·step (mĭs-stĕp′)
n.
1. A misplaced or awkward step.
2. An instance of wrong or improper conduct; a blunder.
intr.v. mis·stepped, mis·step·ping, mis·steps
To make a mistake.
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/misstep
misstep n figurative (faux pas, error) faux pas nm
erreur, bévue nf
http://www.wordreference.com/enfr/Misstep
2) And yes, the text that follows does indeed help a lot! It re-inforces that negative aspect of 'dérive', byt talking forst about the concept of 'openness' (which of course we generally believe to be a good thing!) with the clearly negative possibilities involved with the 'mis-use' of personal data — currently quite a big issue here in France, and indeed, as I learned today, even in the UK! How about this: personal DNA information (what a wonder of modern science that is!) is being sold off to private companies (seems to me negative whichever way you look at it!) — so for example, a health insurer might refuse to cover you if you have a genetic propensity to some condition or another!!! I only mention this as an illustration very much related to your context...
@Phil the next sentence changes the subject to open data: "L'open data pose évidemment des questions éthiques, sous l'angle des données personnelles", so not really helpful
But a 'dérive' is very definitely something drifting of course, with a usually negative connotation — sometimes quite a strong one! Verging in some contexts on 'abuse'...
Some examples of what they see as "dérives" would certainly shed some light on this puzzle.