Harassement because of a BB message Thread poster: Yuko Okabayashi
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Hello all,
I'd like to tell you my experiences about BB message that I left. I have un agency who didn't pay me. Even after recall, the agency didn't reply.
4 days after the expiry of the period of grace that I offered to the agency unilaterally (because they didn't answer if they accept it or not), I put a message like "they don't want to pay".
The following day, this agency called me to contest this message. They keeped me on line more than 30 minutes. T... See more Hello all,
I'd like to tell you my experiences about BB message that I left. I have un agency who didn't pay me. Even after recall, the agency didn't reply.
4 days after the expiry of the period of grace that I offered to the agency unilaterally (because they didn't answer if they accept it or not), I put a message like "they don't want to pay".
The following day, this agency called me to contest this message. They keeped me on line more than 30 minutes. They said to me that a part of the invoices was payed by transfer but I didn't have any proof of payment at this date. They didn't give me any excuse, any reasonable explicatiion about late payment. They only shouted on me and called me lyer. They said several times that there were many agencies of who the good reputation are touched because of BB of Proz. Lastly, I am obliged to remove this message for came back to my work (I had a doc to translate).
This type of reaction of the agency is it possible ? I wonder whether there are other people who were aggressed because of messages on BB.
Admittedly, so that the BB is reliable, we must be able to check the identity of poster. But if the posters erase their messages because of the pressure from the agencies, it is very regrettable.
PS.
Some days later, I knew that a transfer was done 2 days before my message. But the sum is quite insufficient. The agency paid only of the 2/3 of the total sum. Of course that I asked the explanation of this difference. I always wait the response for more than 3 weeks. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ralf Lemster 
Germany
Local time: 05:07
English to German
+ ...
| Please contact a Jobs moderator | Jan 20, 2006 |
Dear Cocotte,
I am sorry to hear of your experience.
The BB rules are clear in this respect:
11. A service provider has commented on his/her likelihood of working again with my business. Can I respond?
Yes. You should have received an email at the time the entry was made. If you did not, or you can not find it and would like to enter a response, send your response to the Jobs coordinators, noting the service provider to whom you are responding.
Please contact a Jobs coordinators if you believe the conditions for making an entry have not been met (for example, if a person who has not worked for you has made an entry.)
If there seems to have been a misunderstanding, outsourcers are encouraged to communicate directly with those making entries. However, making threats or exerting pressure on a ProZ.com member to cause him or her to change his or her "likelihood of working again" with your business is prohibited, and may result in your right to use ProZ.com being restricted.
Like service provider comments, your responses must be restricted to the work relationship and likelihood of working again. Personal remarks from service providers and outsourcers are not acceptable and will be removed by the site staff upon request.
Of course, there are attempts by outsourcers to exert pressure on members to remove their entries. What you should do in such cases is to contact a Jobs/BB moderator, who will get in touch with the offending outsourcer and take appropriate action if necessary.
Please contact me through my profile, indicating the outsourcer concerned in your case. (Thanks for not identifying this outsourcer in the forum.)
Best regards,
Ralf
[Edited at 2006-01-20 07:57]
| | | | Yuko Okabayashi
France
Local time: 05:07
French to Japanese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Thank you. I'll do it. | Jan 20, 2006 |
Dear Ralf,
Thank you for this response.
For the moment, I wait a reaction from this agency.
So I don't want to appear their name here.
If necessary, I'll contact you to explicate with details.
Thank you so much again,
cocotte
| | | | Vadney (X)
German to English
+ ...
| Blue Board Abuse | Jan 20, 2006 |
Dear Cocotte:
I read your message with interest and I agree with you in principle and would find it reprehensible of any agency to attempt to coerce a contractor--except, of course, to coerce by paying
I am both a freelancer and an outsourcer as many on ProZ are at one time or another so I have experience on 'both sides of the fence", if you will.
I have experienced the worst of the BlueBoard ... See more Dear Cocotte:
I read your message with interest and I agree with you in principle and would find it reprehensible of any agency to attempt to coerce a contractor--except, of course, to coerce by paying
I am both a freelancer and an outsourcer as many on ProZ are at one time or another so I have experience on 'both sides of the fence", if you will.
I have experienced the worst of the BlueBoard (people posting horrible messages who never worked for me; people posting derrogatory messages when they don't do what they need to do to get paid -- like provide an invoice or provide bank information ... DUH!). And I have had people posting on these forums who "heard" something and decided to spread it around. Some people just have no brains ... or ethics.
The BlueBoard is no prize-winner, like TCR which has become an archive of sore thumbs and gossip. Little or no fact-checking but plenty of disclaimer language. I have fared better with Payment Practices (PP) which is carefully and very carefully monitored.
I have posted a couple of negative observations on the BlueBoard after having given the agency every opportunity to make good. In some instances I have not gone for the throat on the 31st day after sending an invoice. That would be ridiculous and unrealistic. 90 days is the rule for me to make an enquiry. If the agency is really awful in terms of chronic late payment or unreasonable demands, I feel that is a BlueBoard candidate. Not because the agency is bad per se but because some translators live from 'hand to mouth' and need to be paid early or at least on time to make the rent and get a meal. Luckily, I'm not in that boat and can be more patient.
As I have said, as an outsourcer I have also been the victim of really unscrupulous people out there who are either stupid or very hateful. They have posted information 'as if' they knew me or worked with me and refuse to recant when found out--even when shown their error. Then they have complained that the conversation got 'ugly'. Why not? I ask.
We all have an obligation to use our spark of divinity a.k.a. common sense when taking a job. We all need to be patient before detonating. Henry Dotterer, while not being commital in any way, advised people to check the BlueBoard when in doubt (but on personal experience that may not be the best advice). My advice would be to check the Payment Practices board (but you'll need to wait 1-2 days for a response and you'll have to rely on people responding but its a good, well monitored, accurate place to go).
I also feel that if it's a misunderstanding, the BlueBoard is not the place to go to 'get even'. With the way e-mail has taken hours or days to arrive or does not arrive at all and with the SPAM problem overloading servers perhaps patience and tenacity should join hands and a telephone call or three to follow up may help. Be blunt: ask if they are having a problem paying. Sometimes on large jobs a small agency may have problems until the client pays. Good agency, poor cashflow, slow client does not equate with a bad agency.
Just for kicks and giggles: I have three negative reports on my BB entry: one quoted in CDN$ and tried to bill in US$ and complained that she was not paid on time (payment was not even due when she posted and she was paid on time once we sorted out the invoice problem) and then she complaind I was rude! Two recent ones appear: one never sent an invoice for a number of small jobs he asked not to have paid until they made it worthwhile to send a check and the other did not provide proper bank details and insisted on PayPal (we don't do PayPal; we pay by e-transfer or by bank check). The bulk of reports are very positive except for these three. But does ProZ remove a negative report after almost three years and satisfactory resolution three years ago? No. Who gets the short end: I do. Mr Lemster has blocked me from posting jobs! Fair?
It's regrettable but also but two agencies continue to owe 1700 euros and about 1000 euros for about 18 months now. They have lied about a number of issues and I have been able to obtain the facts from their client and now must enforce collection thru a collection agency or a lawyer.
Well, that's my two-cents. If you have any questions or if I can be of any assistance, please let me know. I can be reached directly at [email protected].
Best regards,
Harold Vadney
cocotte wrote:
Hello all,
I'd like to tell you my experiences about BB message that I left. I have un agency who didn't pay me. Even after recall, the agency didn't reply.
4 days after the expiry of the period of grace that I offered to the agency unilaterally (because they didn't answer if they accept it or not), I put a message like "they don't want to pay".
The following day, this agency called me to contest this message. They keeped me on line more than 30 minutes. They said to me that a part of the invoices was payed by transfer but I didn't have any proof of payment at this date. They didn't give me any excuse, any reasonable explicatiion about late payment. They only shouted on me and called me lyer. They said several times that there were many agencies of who the good reputation are touched because of BB of Proz. Lastly, I am obliged to remove this message for came back to my work (I had a doc to translate).
This type of reaction of the agency is it possible ? I wonder whether there are other people who were aggressed because of messages on BB.
Admittedly, so that the BB is reliable, we must be able to check the identity of poster. But if the posters erase their messages because of the pressure from the agencies, it is very regrettable.
PS.
Some days later, I knew that a transfer was done 2 days before my message. But the sum is quite insufficient. The agency paid only of the 2/3 of the total sum. Of course that I asked the explanation of this difference. I always wait the response for more than 3 weeks. ▲ Collapse
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| Don't blame Ralf | Jan 20, 2006 |
Harold Vadney wrote:
Mr Lemster has blocked me from posting jobs! Fair?
You should not make this a personal matter. Your right to post was suspended in accordance with our standard practices. I will write to you offline.
| | | | Edward Potter
Spain
Local time: 05:07
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Disagreement | Jan 23, 2006 |
An outsourcer's attitude should be the following:
When getting to know translators, sometimes you will find out that they make it hard to pay, translate badly, or otherwise act unprofessionally. PAY THEM! Then move on.
It was just a few lousy bucks. Your reputation is (or should be) priceless. Whatever amount you did not pay, whether you agree you should pay or not, is how much your credibility is worth.
Finally, an outsourcer will have problems with hi... See more An outsourcer's attitude should be the following:
When getting to know translators, sometimes you will find out that they make it hard to pay, translate badly, or otherwise act unprofessionally. PAY THEM! Then move on.
It was just a few lousy bucks. Your reputation is (or should be) priceless. Whatever amount you did not pay, whether you agree you should pay or not, is how much your credibility is worth.
Finally, an outsourcer will have problems with his own clients defaulting on paying sometimes. This has nothing to do with the translators' payment. You pay. If you don't like these very basic principles I would suggest getting out of the middleman game. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Vadney (X)
German to English
+ ...
Hello, Mr Potter and colleagues:
I agree with you in principle and also agree that one's experiences with and treatment of colleagues, contractors, outsourcers is an important determinant of one's standing in our small but ever-expanding community.
Although I have not been paid some fairly large sums of money owed by two outsourcers, that did not stop me from paying the colleagues who contributed in one way or another to completing the project. That put me out quite a l... See more Hello, Mr Potter and colleagues:
I agree with you in principle and also agree that one's experiences with and treatment of colleagues, contractors, outsourcers is an important determinant of one's standing in our small but ever-expanding community.
Although I have not been paid some fairly large sums of money owed by two outsourcers, that did not stop me from paying the colleagues who contributed in one way or another to completing the project. That put me out quite a large sum of money but Hey! they did their part and I would not want to be stiffed in that situation.
But fair is fair, Edward. When one goes the extra mile to make certain terms are clear (payment currencies, time to payment, explicit instructions on information required on invoices, the fact that invoices are required for payment, blah, blah, blah) and individuals still don't comply and then, when payment is delayed or doesn't come at all, proceed to post ugly messages on Mr Dotter's forum and the "outsourcer" gets blackballed (without ado) that's simply wrong.
Again, I do agree with you that simply not paying or trying to coerce someone to remove a posting is not all together right, but I do feel that there is a certain point where the dirt must come off, especially if there is even a scintilla of doubt as to who is culpable. Even more so if the obligations have long since been met. Why this is not done is beyond me.
Mr Dotterer's disclaimers speak volumes but do little to justify unfair postings or postings that remain for years after the obligation has been satisfied.
Mr Dotterer is not alone, though. Over the years several other forums have allowed postings by people who "heard" this or that and posted their two-cents worth of gossip and as the positngs got read they stories got better and uglier. There's one on ProZ where someone in 2003 gave a member a hard time and used profanity. Somehow another member mentioned my name in the forum and all of a sudden it was I who was abusing a member with profanity. But try to get anyone to answer an e-mail to exonerate one's self. That's where all of the communications stop. When it's dirt it sticks--right or wrong--if you're inocent, it still sticks. Go figure what goes on in the minds of our "ethical" colleagues. Again the site-owner disavows any responsibility and, despite the fact that the posters admit their postings are based on hearsay or not based on anything at all, the owner(s) leave them up. I guess that's cheap journalism or the dirt sells subscriptions or something. I don't know. I just don't know.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. ▲ Collapse
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