| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Enough is enough Thread poster: Nikki Scott-Despaigne
|
|---|
| Agree with Bernhard | Aug 24, 2015 |
The whole job board should be fired. It gives a bad impression of the industry. This monster CAN NOT be designed by someone who loves translation and translators.
Instead of having translators pay for false promises (in particular, having a real job at decent prices, but there are others too) and having them waiting for years and years because this will never become true, have clients pay for a powerful search engine, assistance in searching translators in a valuable database, how t... See more The whole job board should be fired. It gives a bad impression of the industry. This monster CAN NOT be designed by someone who loves translation and translators.
Instead of having translators pay for false promises (in particular, having a real job at decent prices, but there are others too) and having them waiting for years and years because this will never become true, have clients pay for a powerful search engine, assistance in searching translators in a valuable database, how to ensure quality translations and additional services.
insist on translators complete their profiles, not on paying a membership fee.
Then each independent translator can make his own quotes at his own prices, such as required in most countries.
In the same way as the translation associations (ATA, etc.) do. And LinkedIn, after all. Businesses have more money than individuals.
Add some client-binding and member-binding features.
Translators who undercut will still undercut, and cheap payers will look for cheap translators, but if the companies (end clients and agencies) are instructed how to obtain quality translations, then they will look for translators or teams who can deliver this quality.
By the way, I do not say this without a reason. I just saw another site make this switch from a member-based business model to a company (clients)-based business model. Technical implementation took a year. It was make this move or die.
Whatever the outcome of these reflexions, I wish you good luck to proz.
--Former proz member
[Edited at 2015-08-24 11:52 GMT] Edited for typo
[Edited at 2015-08-24 12:01 GMT]
[Edited at 2015-08-24 12:01 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | sad state of affairs... | Aug 24, 2015 |
it is what it is... I registered in 2001 and have been a member on and off... being a member didn't make any difference client-wise... I have 3,482 KudoZ... no difference...
The problem with ProZ - although just a platform, in the "don't shoot the messenger" kind of style - is that it makes low rates very visible and therefore, on the long run, it gives the impression that they are the norm, and they are not.
Agencies and clients that offer low rates in Europe have no ... See more it is what it is... I registered in 2001 and have been a member on and off... being a member didn't make any difference client-wise... I have 3,482 KudoZ... no difference...
The problem with ProZ - although just a platform, in the "don't shoot the messenger" kind of style - is that it makes low rates very visible and therefore, on the long run, it gives the impression that they are the norm, and they are not.
Agencies and clients that offer low rates in Europe have no idea of our business - as simple as that - or they are just trying it on...
We all know how much we need to take home every months... the problem is that we all have different needs and different situations... I have 4 kids and I need to make an x amount... somebody living on their own or even at home with their parents will have different needs... I have to charge 20, whilst others can charge 5... do I blame them? In a way, but I understand. It's a free market, after all. It's the same in all unregulated professions.
Can we change ProZ? No. We can stop supporting it, though, if we don't agree with its philosophy... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Dan Lucas 
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:02
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| Now there are alternatives... | Aug 24, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I am all for change on this portal, but as far as the job board is concerned, I have given up hope and I see no point to it.
I have had several clients contact me through ProZ, but I don't think I've ever won a decent job on the board. In that sense I largely agree with you about the job postings.
And that is why there's at least one forum for translators that doesn't run a job board.
Regards
Dan
| | | |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
The problem with ProZ - although just a platform, in the "don't shoot the messenger" kind of style - is that it makes low rates very visible and therefore, on the long run, it gives the impression that they are the norm, and they are not.
proz set norms. A pity, yes. How does it come that an ATA-translator is told here again and again by clients that the "norm" is half her price? What does she do then? Stay here and participate in forums and be willing to help other translators on how to "bid"? "Bidding" also became a "norm" whereas in real life it isn't. I know people who 20 minutes after coming on this site slammed the door.
Is there some way back? I believe. Site staff is helpful and technically competent. The site is slightly old-fashioned but some images could be inserted here and there without endangering the forum structure. But the job section should be replaced by an adequate client-translator matching procedure.
| | |
|
|
|
Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 21:02
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Norber, entirely different business model | Aug 25, 2015 |
Norber wrote:
Have clients pay for a powerful search engine, assistance in searching translators in a valuable database, how to ensure quality translations and additional services.
It is a mistake to believe that low-paying clients will change into high-paying clients simply if you force them to pay a membership fee to get access to translators. Similarly, it is naive to think that only high-paying clients will be willing to pay for access to translators.
So, changing the business model from the current one to the one that you propose will have no effect on the complaints that were voiced in this thread.
| | | |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
We all know how much we need to take home every months... the problem is that we all have different needs and different situations... I have 4 kids and I need to make an x amount... somebody living on their own or even at home with their parents will have different needs... I have to charge 20, whilst others can charge 5... do I blame them? In a way, but I understand. It's a free market, after all. It's the same in all unregulated professions.
Well, I don't think a translator's rate should be set according to the number of children they have:), but rather according to their education, experience and specialities - I thought!?
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 03:02
Chinese to English
Gabriele Demuth wrote:
Well, I don't think a translator's rate should be set according to the number of children they have:), but rather according to their education, experience and specialities - I thought!?
Rates are not determined by your need for money, nor by your skills. Rates are determined by negotiation, based on the market supply of and demand for the service you are offering.
| | | | | Skills, yes! | Aug 26, 2015 |
Phil Hand wrote: Gabriele Demuth wrote:
Well, I don't think a translator's rate should be set according to the number of children they have:), but rather according to their education, experience and specialities - I thought!? Rates are not determined by your need for money, nor by your skills. Rates are determined by negotiation, based on the market supply of and demand for the service you are offering.
Well, skills certainly have to do with it. Any newbie should have the skill to provide an accurate translation of the text he/she accepts to take on. You don't become a professional translator, then try it out for what?! - 5 cents a word - and deliver a text full of mistakes; or think you have to work for peanuts because you're new. So, before you quote a rate for a project, you need the skills to do it. Then you must quote a fair price. Fair to you. That will also mean fair to the client. Cause he's getting his money's worth. But just because there is some "demand" in the market to translate that text for 5 cents/word doesn't mean you should do it.
Just because it's hard to get decent pay/good clients in our industry doesn't mean you should take on ridiculous offers from amateur agencies. Then do something else.
Based on the skills required to translate accurately, you need to stick to a professional attitude and ask for reasonable remuneration. That way you can compete in a competitive but professional environment. And years/experience will also count, of course.
Anything else is exploitation and translators must not let themselves be exploited. Professionals don't work in sweatshops even though some outsourcers and posters might try to make it look like it's the most natural thing to do. But no, it's not.
Respect your craft. Respect yourself!
[Edited at 2015-08-26 02:28 GMT]
| | |
|
|
|
Angela Malik
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:02
German to English
+ ...
| Problem with your logic | Aug 26, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote: Phil Hand wrote: Gabriele Demuth wrote:
Well, I don't think a translator's rate should be set according to the number of children they have:), but rather according to their education, experience and specialities - I thought!? Rates are not determined by your need for money, nor by your skills. Rates are determined by negotiation, based on the market supply of and demand for the service you are offering. Well, skills certainly have to do with it. Any newbie should have the skill to provide an accurate translation of the text he/she accepts to take on....before you quote a rate for a project, you need the skills to do it... ...But just because there is some "demand" in the market to translate that text for 5 cents/word doesn't mean you should do it.
Skills are learned and honed. A translator with more experience is therefore more skilled. So someone just starting out with less experience should, by your above logic, be charging less than another translator with decades of experience. Unless you are simply arguing that the *starting rate* should be high(er than the "peanuts" rates) because even a beginner has some level of professional skill?
Also the "demand" in the market is not the rate. It's the service you provide. If you work with a language that no one wants, you have low demand. If you work with a language that is saturated with suppliers, you have high supply, which will ultimately drive prices down because clients aren't stupid. (not all of them, anyway)
I'm not advocating ridiculously low rates, but this is just business basics. High supply = buyer's market. There's a reason why we rarely hear the Finns (for example) complaining about rates: they have a seller's market (high demand, low supply)
I think like any business you have to set your rate according to several factors: what your expenses are (e.g. how many children you are responsible for feeding), what reflects your skill set and experience, what the market can sustain (e.g. supply/demand) and specifically what your target market will accept as reasonable and fair. The better you are at negotiation, the more likely you are to achieve a higher rate.
If you have high expenses, you can't charge as low a rate as some (so your flexibility during price negotiations is reduced). If you are less experienced or are less specialised, you can't always get away with charging higher rates. If you work in a saturated language combination where the going rate is EUR 0.10 (for example), then you are unlikely to get away with charging EUR 0.20 especially if your target market cannot afford or would be stupid to accept that rate.
[Edited at 2015-08-26 04:36 GMT]
| | | | | This is all true, but | Aug 26, 2015 |
considering all this, the income a translator should be achieving or aiming for needs to be at a level that reflects their education, skills and experience, e.g. a person who has spent 4 or more years at university and has had another professional career they worked hard for would expect a higher income than a cleaner or waitress without training.
At a talk at my local university some time ago I was told that the average income of a translator in the UK is between 30-50K per year. I... See more considering all this, the income a translator should be achieving or aiming for needs to be at a level that reflects their education, skills and experience, e.g. a person who has spent 4 or more years at university and has had another professional career they worked hard for would expect a higher income than a cleaner or waitress without training.
At a talk at my local university some time ago I was told that the average income of a translator in the UK is between 30-50K per year. I found this appropriate, but so far difficult to achieve - I am working on it. As Angela says, it is up to each individual how they go about it, but it makes me feel a bit sad that I have entered an industry where a lot of very skilled and educated people appear to accept the income of a cleaner?
[Edited at 2015-08-26 05:25 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Explanation of my logic | Aug 26, 2015 |
Angela Rimmer wrote:
Skills are learned and honed. A translator with more experience is therefore more skilled. So someone just starting out with less experience should, by your above logic, be charging less than another translator with decades of experience. Unless you are simply arguing that the *starting rate* should be high(er than the "peanuts" rates) because even a beginner has some level of professional skill?
Yes, I am simply arguing that even someone "starting a professional career as a translator" should charge an adequate rate for what they do. "Beginner" shouldn't mean you don't know what you're doing. Beginner is meant as in "entering the profession because of language skills that have already been acquired."
Angela Rimmer wrote:
Also the "demand" in the market is not the rate. It's the service you provide. If you work with a language that no one wants, you have low demand. If you work with a language that is saturated with suppliers, you have high supply, which will ultimately drive prices down because clients aren't stupid. (not all of them, anyway)
Low ball market niche: demand # 1: accept peanuts; demand # 2: do us a big favor and translate as well and as fast as you can; demand # 3: wait for your money until we're ready to pay you.
I was referring to # 1
The prices in that market are not driven down because the outsourcers aren't stupid. They're driven down because plenty of translators accept the rates and think they have to make a living working for peanuts.
The lower this market niche falls with their rates, the greater the probability that all that is produced is rubbish. Eventually, anyone working for progressively worse-tasting peanuts will get wise and either reevaluate their situation and try to join the ranks of professionals or make more money elsewhere.
Angela Rimmer wrote:
I'm not advocating ridiculously low rates, but this is just business basics. High supply = buyer's market. There's a reason why we rarely hear the Finns (for example) complaining about rates: they have a seller's market (high demand, low supply)
I am a strong believer in quality work in whatever language. Granted, a smaller market with fewer translators might have more room for quality translators and their power to quote and get better rates. Same for high demand and a low supply of "quality" translators. In theory. But a large market affords many more opportunities than a small market and the demand for good translators/translations is there manifold. It's up to the translator to find a way to get to those clients. That's where the challenge lies. I don't agree that because there are so many translators that the buyers get to dictate my rates. First, every translator is unique and there is only one of me. I charge what is adequate for my work and my skills. I am flexible to a degree but will not take on low-ball offers. I am focused on quality work and quality clients. I am not going to be dragged down by high supply-lower rate models. There is no reason why my Finnish colleagues and I shouldn't be working at relatively the same rate level for comparable quality. The quality market is paying quality rates anywhere.
Angela Rimmer wrote:
I think like any business you have to set your rate according to several factors: what your expenses are (e.g. how many children you are responsible for feeding), what reflects your skill set and experience, what the market can sustain (e.g. supply/demand) and specifically what your target market will accept as reasonable and fair. The better you are at negotiation, the more likely you are to achieve a higher rate.
Of course you would like to and have to consider what it is you need to earn. If that's not possible, you need a different job. But the only way to get there is to do the best job you can do. The rates will vary somewhat, mine won't go below a certain threshold for any project, and you just keep working as the projects come in. That's all. There are no guarantees and guaranteed projects that just continue forever. It's a constant process of working with some of your long-time clients and with a few in-betweens and hopefully as many new ones that become long-time ones.
Angela Rimmer wrote:
If you have high expenses, you can't charge as low a rate as some (so your flexibility during price negotiations is reduced). If you are less experienced or are less specialised, you can't always get away with charging higher rates. If you work in a saturated language combination where the going rate is EUR 0.10 (for example), then you are unlikely to get away with charging EUR 0.20 especially if your target market cannot afford or would be stupid to accept that rate.
[Edited at 2015-08-26 04:36 GMT]
I don't buy that first argument about the weak negotiation stance. Because that sounds like the lower your expenses, the lower you are willing to go. Not going to do that. I see that as false competitiveness. No need for that with quality clients. The day we don't have any more quality clients is the day I'm out.
And if you are less experienced or less specialized, you are still going to be taking on certain projects that you are comfortable with, meaning you will provide accurate work. It might not pay as much as a highly technical text or an important and/or challenging marketing document, but you still need to stand your ground and charge adequately for accurate work. There is not one translation that is so easy that it justifies letting oneself be exploited by the vultures in the business.
And regarding my target market as an example: I charge a fair price for quality and my clients gladly pay for it. No one accepting my rates is stupid or not willing or able to afford them.
[Edited at 2015-08-26 05:45 GMT]
| | | | Angela Malik
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:02
German to English
+ ...
| Not everyone is cut out for business | Aug 26, 2015 |
Gabriele Demuth wrote:
considering all this, the income a translator should be achieving or aiming for needs to be at a level that reflects their education, skills and experience, e.g. a person who has spent 4 or more years at university and has had another professional career they worked hard for would expect a higher income than a cleaner or waitress without training.
At a talk at my local university some time ago I was told that the average income of a translator in the UK is between 30-50K per year. I found this appropriate, but so far difficult to achieve - I am working on it. As Angela says, it is up to each individual how they go about it, but it makes me feel a bit sad that I have entered an industry where a lot of very skilled and educated people appear to accept the income of a cleaner?
[Edited at 2015-08-26 05:25 GMT]
I think it is more that you have entered an industry where there are very few in-house jobs, so those who wish to translate are more or less forced to work for themselves as freelancers, and unfortunately, a lot of them are not business owners by nature. So we have a lot of people who probably should not be running their own businesses, but are. I have a friend and translator who frequently laments to me that she's "a linguist, not a businesswoman!" Well if you are a freelancer that means that you must also put on your businessperson hat. You are not just a translator, unless you get a 9-5 in-house job as an employee somewhere in a company where someone else takes care of the business side of things. The good news is that even someone who is not business-minded by nature can learn to be.
Then add to that the fact that a lot of clients do not understand what our business entails, and don't always appreciate the benefits our services bring to them, so selling our services becomes more tricky.
Poor business skills + clueless clientele = a lot of translators not making much money
We can't blame the clients for not knowing our business -- that's our job, and it's also our job to market and sell our services in a way that instills confidence in our ability to bring added value to our clients. So the best thing our industry could really do with is for us, the translators, to learn how to do business better (but unlike Bernhard, I do not think that means banging on and on about new translators charging low rates). If you respect your business for what it is, a business, your rates will start to reflect that.
| | |
|
|
|
Angela Malik
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:02
German to English
+ ...
| Demand = need in the market | Aug 26, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Low ball market niche: demand # 1: accept peanuts; demand # 2: do us a big favor and translate as well and as fast as you can; demand # 3: wait for your money until we're ready to pay you.
Again, I think you are misunderstanding demand. Is there a need for the service you're providing? If not, you have low demand. You can be the best translator in the world but if you're offering a service that nobody wants (e.g. a language that very few people are looking for) then you won't find many buyers.
The prices in that market are...driven down because plenty of translators accept the rates and think they have to make a living working for peanuts.
(God, I hate the word "peanuts".) Prices are also driven down when supply and demand aren't working in your favour. If the going rate for a particular language combination and specialisation is EUR 0.10, for example, then you'll be hard-pressed to find a client willing to pay EUR 0.50, unless they have an unlimited budget and absolutely no interest in shopping around for quotes.
I don't buy that first argument about the weak negotiation stance. Because that sounds like the lower your expenses, the lower you are willing to go.
No, I mean the lower your expenses, the lower you CAN go. To some extent that affects your flexibility when negotiating prices. I'm not suggesting we all quote as low as we can go, but we're in a strong negotiating position both mentally and in reality if we know that we don't HAVE to charge X to pay our bills.
And regarding my target market as an example: I charge a fair price for quality and my clients gladly pay for it. No one accepting my rates is stupid or not willing or able to afford them.
Great. But I have no idea what the relevance of this is, I wasn't accusing you personally of anything regarding your clients or your rates.
| | | | | Short rebuttal | Aug 26, 2015 |
Angela Rimmer wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Low ball market niche: demand # 1: accept peanuts; demand # 2: do us a big favor and translate as well and as fast as you can; demand # 3: wait for your money until we're ready to pay you. Again, I think you are misunderstanding demand. Is there a need for the service you're providing? If not, you have low demand. You can be the best translator in the world but if you're offering a service that nobody wants (e.g. a language that very few people are looking for) then you won't find many buyers.
I understand demand and supply, Andrea. I don't work in a no or low demand market. And I don't give in to a low-price demand market niche. It's not my niche.
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
The prices in that market are...driven down because plenty of translators accept the rates and think they have to make a living working for peanuts.
Angela Rimmer wrote:
(God, I hate the word "peanuts".) Prices are also driven down when supply and demand aren't working in your favour. If the going rate for a particular language combination and specialisation is EUR 0.10, for example, then you'll be hard-pressed to find a client willing to pay EUR 0.50, unless they have an unlimited budget and absolutely no interest in shopping around for quotes.
Your example is too simple I'm afraid. In our profession, things get skewed for some people because they work in a the low ball section where nothing is working in their (the translators' favor). I have established my rates over many years and am not giving in to unreasonable demands, that's all. If certain people think they must pay EUR .10/word and can't be convinced to pay more (if I feel it is warranted for that project), they need to look for a different translator. I'm not simply doing it for whatever someone demands to pay because they "think" or "have heard" of a going rate of .10/word. And there's a big difference between .10 and .50. I don't overcharge. And shopping around doesn't mean just trying to press a translator for lower prices. It means to get the best for a reasonable price. At least my quality clients look at it that way.
...
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
And regarding my target market as an example: I charge a fair price for quality and my clients gladly pay for it. No one accepting my rates is stupid or not willing or able to afford them.
Angela Rimmer wrote:
Great. But I have no idea what the relevance of this is, I wasn't accusing you personally of anything regarding your clients or your rates.
You wrote earlier:
Angela Rimmer wrote:
If you work in a saturated language combination where the going rate is EUR 0.10 (for example), then you are unlikely to get away with charging EUR 0.20 especially if your target market cannot afford or would be stupid to accept that rate.
I was just giving my case as an example to make sure I am clear. I was simply trying to say that my personal target market - the good clients that I work with - don't have to worry about me trying "to get away" with charging them an inadequate or unfair amount of money. If anyone wants to pay a "going rate" that they heard of somewhere that's fine. They don't have to work with me. But my clients are not looking for going rates. They find me because I charge fair rates for quality. Going rate for whom? The vast majority of translators? Well, I don't speak for them and don't adjust my rate to theirs.
Hope that clarifies.
[Edited at 2015-08-26 06:41 GMT]
| | | |
Angela Rimmer wrote:
(God, I hate the word "peanuts".)
See also http://www.proz.com/forum/business_issues/287692-what_is_really_happening_in_the_business-page3.html#2445055
If an individual is incapable of expressing themselves on this issue without mentionning peanuts, I have decided of late their opinion is probably worth very little and I can save myself a great deal of time, especially over the course of a lifetime, by not reading such comments
Only "probably", natch, they could be a business and economics genius, in which case, my loss.
Of late, I have been coming to the conclusion that thinking about the issue in terms solely of supply and demand (although I have done more or less exactly that in the past e.g http://cbavington.com/blog/2012/01/10/article-the-price-is-already-right/ ) is probably over-simplifying matters.
Utility (or perceived utility) and substitution effects, especially the negative impact of agency involvement in the supply chain, which would appear to drag down one and increase the other (usually, not necessarily universally), should also be considered.
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Enough is enough | Anycount & Translation Office 3000 | Translation Office 3000
Translation Office 3000 is an advanced accounting tool for freelance translators and small agencies. TO3000 easily and seamlessly integrates with the business life of professional freelance translators.
More info » |
| | Trados Business Manager Lite | Create customer quotes and invoices from within Trados Studio
Trados Business Manager Lite helps to simplify and speed up some of the daily tasks, such as invoicing and reporting, associated with running your freelance translation business.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
