| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Enough is enough Thread poster: Nikki Scott-Despaigne
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| Maybe we should do something about it | Aug 15, 2015 |
Michele Fauble wrote: Fiona Peterson wrote:
I believe ProZ should set minimum rates for each language pair, below which jobs cannot be posted.
The fact that ours is an "unregulated profession" should not prevent us from regulating it ourselves from within. I believe this is illegal.
When I taught classical ballet I joined the Dance Teachers' Federation in the county where I live. At the time, the Federation in question had only existed for a year. Anyway, during our first meeting we established the minimum fees students would have to pay for their classes. The main reason was because people who were teaching in village halls were having difficulty trying to convince parents that the quality of the classes was just as high as in large towns and cities.
I suppose the Federation is legal - it never occurred to me to ask - but I know it is a provincial branch of the Catalan Federation which, in turn, forms part of the Spanish Federation.
Classical ballet isn't a regulated profession either, which is why dance teachers saw the need to join together and defend their rights as one body. When I joined the Federation in 1986, I think there were only about a dozen members in the whole province but the number increased every year, reaching a point when teachers had to apply to join.
Would it really be impossible to establish some sort of translators' federation, academy or guild? Either that, or get in touch with the existing associations to ask them to implement measures that raise society's awareness.
I'm not a member of any translators' association, simply because I've never got round to it, but I'm sure that if I knew I would benefit from being a member, I would immediately apply for membership.
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Michele Fauble wrote:
I believe this is illegal.
Interesting - I didn't know. Still not entirely sure it applies here - Proz is not "establishing the price of a product or service", rather defining a price threshold which would permit professionals to be properly paid for the services they provide.
It's a moot point anyway - the site's hearing has been somewhat selective over the past years when "listening to its users", and I doubt that is about to change.
| | | | | Keep discussing rates without fixing them | Aug 17, 2015 |
At some of the powwows held in Denmark, we have mentioned the average rates on this site for our languages, and the CIoL/ITI survey. One year I believe a colleague had a survey from the German BDÜ. We have taken anonymous surveys among ourselves of various rates - Danish to English, English to Danish, direct clients, agencies, possibly other language pairs if it was possible to keep them anonymous, I'm not sure...
... and worked out our own unofficial statistics.
We ca... See more At some of the powwows held in Denmark, we have mentioned the average rates on this site for our languages, and the CIoL/ITI survey. One year I believe a colleague had a survey from the German BDÜ. We have taken anonymous surveys among ourselves of various rates - Danish to English, English to Danish, direct clients, agencies, possibly other language pairs if it was possible to keep them anonymous, I'm not sure...
... and worked out our own unofficial statistics.
We carefully did NOT agree on any illegal minimum rates, but all went home with food for thought and an idea of what the competition was like.
This is useful when setting rates, and the generally available surveys are references when clients complain that we are expensive.
The trouble with setting a minimum rate, apart from being illegal, is that people see no need to go above it!
This apparently was a problem with some FairTrade schemes for products like coffee - the FairTrade schemes were overtaken by others, and in countries with inflation, prices that once were fair were suddenly lower than many others!
Apart from that, we have to keep on and on explaining that translation is not a commodity sold by the kilo, but a professional service, where no two texts are identical.
Point out that it is NOT a job for anyone at college looking for some pocket money, and why. Let people know what we are offering for our fees.
And for pity's sake never talk about translation as an industry 
That simply reinforces the commodity and machine translation associations! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Thanks for your input Christine | Aug 17, 2015 |
Christine Andersen wrote:
The trouble with setting a minimum rate, apart from being illegal, is that people see no need to go above it!
Thank you for your thoughts Christine - that of rates is certainly a thorny issue, and there does not seem to be an easy solution.
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| Rate setting in an international market | Aug 17, 2015 |
I think there is no escaping the fact that 5 currency units in Mumbai will get you further than the same 5 currency units in Marseille. There is nothing to stop a translator in Mumbai competing for jobs in Marseille. The chances are though, that it is more lilkely to be the other way round; that a client in Marseille will look to see what he can get for his same 5 currency units elsewhere. ProZ can do nothing to stop that. For these reasons alone, establishing any going rate "internationally" i... See more I think there is no escaping the fact that 5 currency units in Mumbai will get you further than the same 5 currency units in Marseille. There is nothing to stop a translator in Mumbai competing for jobs in Marseille. The chances are though, that it is more lilkely to be the other way round; that a client in Marseille will look to see what he can get for his same 5 currency units elsewhere. ProZ can do nothing to stop that. For these reasons alone, establishing any going rate "internationally" is actually impossible.
What ProZ can do is offer posting space for those offering jobs. What can we do? Take it or leave it.
One option is to take out membership, but if my own experience of membership is anything to go by, that made so little difference to me that I never renewed it. In spite of all this, I still consider it a shame that job posters posting jobs on the open post jobs board offer rates which are so prohibitively low for many. Perhaps we should just be happy with the fact that some folk are getting work through the jobs section. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:07
Serbian to English
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| legal / illegal ... | Aug 18, 2015 |
Michele Fauble wrote: Fiona Peterson wrote:
I believe ProZ should set minimum rates for each language pair, below which jobs cannot be posted.
The fact that ours is an "unregulated profession" should not prevent us from regulating it ourselves from within. I believe this is illegal.
so according to you the National Minimum Wage / le Salaire minimum de croissance (Smic) etc.. are all illegal?
with friends like you, who needs enemies?
BTW, if you insist on having the "freedom" to be forced into low prices, take a look at the subject of "dumping" - THAT is illegal (for sure in Europe).
also, FYI avoiding dumping prices is part of "Proz Professional guidelines":
"set their rates at levels that allow them to deliver, on an ongoing basis, the quality levels that their clients require"
to deliver, on an ongoing basis, IOW whoever claims to be professional should set prices that are sustainable in the long run, not at some level that is just enough to get some pocket money for the next week-end.
So following the same logic, anyone "offering" or "asking for" unsustainable prices should be prevented from posting jobs or from bidding for jobs.
But there is a small fly in the ointment - anyone with Internet access anywhere in the world can access Proz - so which country should be used as reference as to what are "sustainable rates"? I don't pretend to have any solution to that rebus ...
[Edited at 2015-08-18 12:10 GMT]
[Edited at 2015-08-18 12:11 GMT]
[Edited at 2015-08-18 13:45 GMT]
| | | | Michele Fauble 
United States
Local time: 00:07
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
Daryo wrote: Michele Fauble wrote: Fiona Peterson wrote:
I believe ProZ should set minimum rates for each language pair, below which jobs cannot be posted.
The fact that ours is an "unregulated profession" should not prevent us from regulating it ourselves from within. I believe this is illegal. so according to you the National Minimum Wage / le Salaire minimum de croissance (Smic) etc.. are all illegal? with friends like you, who needs enemies? BTW, if you insist on having the "freedom" to be forced into low prices, take a look at the subject of "dumping" - THAT is illegal (for sure in Europe). also, FYI avoiding dumping prices is part of "Proz Professional guidelines": "set their rates at levels that allow them to deliver, on an ongoing basis, the quality levels that their clients require" to deliver, on an ongoing basis, IOW whoever claims to be professional should set prices that are sustainable in the long run, not at some level that is just enough to get some pocket money for the next week-end. So following the same logic, anyone "offering" or "asking for" unsustainable prices should be prevented from posting jobs or from bidding for jobs. But there is a small fly in the ointment - anyone with Internet access anywhere in the world can access Proz - so which country should be used as reference as to what are "sustainable rates"? I don't pretend to have any solution to that rebus ...
Why the attack? I just pointed out that price fixing is illegal and you assume I'm defending low rates. I work in language pairs that pay high rates and I assure you my rates are anything but low. As for understanding the differences between minimum wages, price fixing and dumping, I suggest you do the research.
| | | | Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:07
Serbian to English
+ ...
| in which team are you playing? | Aug 20, 2015 |
Michele Fauble wrote:
"As for understanding the differences between minimum wages, price fixing and dumping, I suggest you do the research."
Very sensible suggestion, but I'm afraid it's coming a bit too late.
Been there, got the T-shirts for the theoretical AND practical aspects of all these ... few years back, in actual facts before you done your first translation.
If you consider it's an attack to point out that your mantra (sorry "belief") is just... See more Michele Fauble wrote:
"As for understanding the differences between minimum wages, price fixing and dumping, I suggest you do the research."
Very sensible suggestion, but I'm afraid it's coming a bit too late.
Been there, got the T-shirts for the theoretical AND practical aspects of all these ... few years back, in actual facts before you done your first translation.
If you consider it's an attack to point out that your mantra (sorry "belief") is just that, it's your perception.
The real problem is that "believing we can't do that / this / anything" is what Sir Humphrey Appleby, GCB, KBE, MVO, MA (Oxon) would definitely call a "very interesting" method for protecting your own profession. ▲ Collapse
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| Disappointed | Aug 21, 2015 |
This is the sort of thing that makes me reticent to post on dicussion forums.
We are translators.
We are in the business of using words.
We are also in the business of doing our best to understand.
We are in the business of allowing for different understandings and interpretations.
Bearing these criteria in mind, we should be in a better position than the common mortal to express our differences of opinion without upset.
Conclusion? Translators are comm... See more This is the sort of thing that makes me reticent to post on dicussion forums.
We are translators.
We are in the business of using words.
We are also in the business of doing our best to understand.
We are in the business of allowing for different understandings and interpretations.
Bearing these criteria in mind, we should be in a better position than the common mortal to express our differences of opinion without upset.
Conclusion? Translators are common mortals. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Minimum wages are to protect employees | Aug 21, 2015 |
It is assumed that the employee is the 'little man' and the employer, in a position of power, can exploit wage earners by paying low wages.
It also limits a 'dog-eat-dog' situation where people can offer to take jobs for less than their neighbours. In factories and large workplaces where a lot of people are doing similar work, then you can expect the same pay for the same work.
Freelance translators are seen in legislation as independent companies, even if they have no ... See more It is assumed that the employee is the 'little man' and the employer, in a position of power, can exploit wage earners by paying low wages.
It also limits a 'dog-eat-dog' situation where people can offer to take jobs for less than their neighbours. In factories and large workplaces where a lot of people are doing similar work, then you can expect the same pay for the same work.
Freelance translators are seen in legislation as independent companies, even if they have no employees. We are not wage earners working for the same employer. Technically at least we are competitors.
Price fixing between different companies is another matter entirely, and that is actually what we are doing if we fix minimum or standard rates among ourselves. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Inga Petkelyte
Portugal
Local time: 08:07
Lithuanian to Portuguese
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| The EU i snot always a guarantee | Aug 21, 2015 |
Rasmus Drews wrote:
You're running a business and you don't expect any expenses to be involved? A 1 year Proz.com membership will set you maybe back half a day's income (if you're in the EU). A Trados license will set you back a few days. But it's all tax deductible...
There are too many divergencies between the Member-States, so where you can say it's one day's income in some of them, it is a half-month of work in others. And it is not tax deductible if you are a freelancer.
When agreeing with Nikki's point, I only wonder: taking into consideration that ProZ stands for the global market, with extremely wide rate differences among regions, how could they possibly ensure the fairness? A "scandalous" rate in one part of the world may be a sought-after income on the other side of the globe. Well, even within the same EU that happens to be a reality.
I haven't given much thought to the issue yet, and when I start, I will seek to suggest some solutions.
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| Deductibility | Aug 23, 2015 |
Inga Petkelyte wrote:
And it is not tax deductible if you are a freelancer.
Hello Inga,
Just a brief correction as deductibility of expenses and tax will depend on one's particular business setup and one's country. In France, for example, it would be inaccurate to say a professional purchase is not deductible if you are a freelancer. You can be a freelancer in one of three ways in France. Deductibility of expenses and VAT varies according to the status you choose.
There are certainly variations from one country to another within the EU.
The example of France.
In France, if you are a freelancer with the "autoentrepreneur" business structure, you cannot deduct business expenses. You are not liable for VAT (you do not charge VAT) with this status and so you cannot recover VAT.
In France, if you are a freelancer (but not an autoentrepreneur) and you are not registered for VAT, you can still deduct professional expenditure. You cannot recover VAT (as you do not charge it).
In France, if you are a freelancer and registered for VAT, you are liable for VAT (you charge VAT) and can recover VAT on professional expenses. You are also entitled to deduct professional expenditure from income.
I have not gone into any great detail as it is a little "hors sujet". I just wanted to point out that it is not the case in France that freelancers cannot deduct purchases and/or VAT. It depends on other types of status.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 09:07
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Let's not confuse the two distinct services here | Aug 23, 2015 |
Fiona Grace Peterson wrote:
ProZ would lose customers, but it would gain a different type of client and perhaps regain that credibility it has lost over the past years, among its users first and foremost. How many have abandoned the site due to the policies of the Jobs Board?
I think the problem is compounded by the fact that ProZ.com provides more than one service (two services, I think), and users at whom the one service is aimed have an unrealistic expectation about the benefits that the other service, which is not intended for them in the first place.
The two services I'm referring to, are: (a) connecting high-paying clients with translators, and (b) connecting low-paying clients with translators.
High-paying clients connect with translators through their profile pages. Low-paying clients connect with translators through the jobs board.
These are two distinct services, and translators who prefer high-paying clients should not be surprised if they are offered low rates if they deliberately use a service that is aimed at translators who prefer low-paying clients. There is also nothing to "fix" in the jobs board, because it works as intended.
I can understand why the idea of a jobs board might be enticing to high-rate translators, and why so many of them subscribe to the jobs board even though it is not intended for them. The jobs board appears to provide a virtually effort-free and seemingly abundant supply of jobs... but the reason why the jobs board is so successful is precisely because it's a low-rate service. High-rate translators who complain about low rates on the low-rate service want their bread buttered on both sides, and it aint gonna happen.
One possible solution to this "problem" would be to have a separate jobs board for translators who prefer high-paying clients (i.e. an elite jobs board). For example, in such a system, jobs notifications would be sent only to translators whose declared minimum rate is at least 20% higher than the highest community rate for that language pair (and outsourcers would know this).
| | | | | Leave it be. Everything will work itself out. | Aug 23, 2015 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Fiona Grace Peterson wrote:
ProZ would lose customers, but it would gain a different type of client and perhaps regain that credibility it has lost over the past years, among its users first and foremost. How many have abandoned the site due to the policies of the Jobs Board? I think the problem is compounded by the fact that ProZ.com provides more than one service (two services, I think), and users at whom the one service is aimed have an unrealistic expectation about the benefits that the other service, which is not intended for them in the first place. The two services I'm referring to, are: (a) connecting high-paying clients with translators, and (b) connecting low-paying clients with translators. High-paying clients connect with translators through their profile pages. Low-paying clients connect with translators through the jobs board. These are two distinct services, and translators who prefer high-paying clients should not be surprised if they are offered low rates if they deliberately use a service that is aimed at translators who prefer low-paying clients. There is also nothing to "fix" in the jobs board, because it works as intended. I can understand why the idea of a jobs board might be enticing to high-rate translators, and why so many of them subscribe to the jobs board even though it is not intended for them. The jobs board appears to provide a virtually effort-free and seemingly abundant supply of jobs... but the reason why the jobs board is so successful is precisely because it's a low-rate service. High-rate translators who complain about low rates on the low-rate service want their bread buttered on both sides, and it aint gonna happen. One possible solution to this "problem" would be to have a separate jobs board for translators who prefer high-paying clients (i.e. an elite jobs board). For example, in such a system, jobs notifications would be sent only to translators whose declared minimum rate is at least 20% higher than the highest community rate for that language pair (and outsourcers would know this).
I am all for change on this portal, but as far as the job board is concerned, I have given up hope and I see no point to it.
One problem is that any job board forces translators to compete on price or simply accept what a job poster is offering. Even with your elite job board, it's very likely that there's not going to be good rates and you can't really force anyone not to underbid and if there were two job boards, why should the job poster use the "elite" job board if he can get it from translators who will gladly accept the same job on the "scrounge" job board - and what about posting the job on both job boards and what about jobs with no budget? No, the job board would have to go, period/full stop!
Even if you can convince me that your suggestions are good, and they are if they could be implemented and work the way you want them to work, the main stumbling block is that Proz.com would have to ask themselves what this will mean for them. They depend on membership fees and readership/visitorship to their website to earn money by selling advertising space. If you think it through, you will probably agree with me that they might think it's a bad idea to enact what you suggest. The impression I got from Proz.com over many years is that
they are trying to make many things better for translators (discounts for software tools, help with the profile, training videos, etc.) - and it's not because they're trying to be nice but they are selling it to you; the more they offer, they higher the membership fee can be -, and that on the other hand
they will not abandon the profitable exchange between those who must pay for the membership in order to bid for the jobs and the job posters who never have to pay to post a job. Imagine, the more members, the more bids, the more money. You won't even need more jobs posted. It'll be just more and more translators bidding for them, in hopes of getting the job. Who's getting the jobs really and what kind of jobs are these?
I used to be very concerned about many jobs being taken away from professionals that way. But not anymore.
We have certainly reached a critical mass in terms of price/quality ratio on this and similar portals.
"Jobs taken away from professionals by low bidders" only holds true if the people carrying out the jobs do an excellent job or if the client required an excellent job. But those clients don't post jobs on the job board, and increasingly, don't contact me through the directory either (well they didn't during my last membership years before I cancelled my membership about a month ago - this time probably for good.).
And if the good clients ever did post good jobs on the job board, they have almost disappeared - a good posting - usually from some direct client is a rare exception and will be answered by hundreds of bids and you know who's going to win that bid.
What I am saying is that if you have four professionals and one amateur sitting at a table and the job offer comes in asking for the best rate and that great chance for long-term collaboration, guess what those four will say: "I'm out." Which leaves the amateur accepting the job and getting in over his head. Result: rubbish.
Let the industry learn. Let them get rubbish from cheap translators and middleman agencies, let them post and accept their jobs. The occasional very good and very dumb newbie working for peanuts will be more and more of an exception.
My time is way too valuable to even think about the job board or directory contacts anymore.
I don't work for 5 US cents per word. According to my non-member status at Proz.com, I am an outcast here as far as chances for bad jobs is concerned. But I certainly don't mind. I don't show up on page 1 in the directory listing as a member anymore, I'm listed with the other non-members in that separate category. Granted, I might show up in searches in the advanced directory search.
If someone finds their way to my profile by accident, great. But I'm not sitting at home twiddling my thumbs and hoping for a miracle offer or a generally good client.
It will work itself out. For professionals that is. We all have some good clients and we will gain more as the rest of the amateurs and hobbyists will continue to drag themselves down.
Don't do anything, and leave it be. It will work itself out in the end. I can't depend on bidding for bad jobs and getting rejected again and again because I compete by offering best practices and fair rates.
Proz.com professonal guidelines, which, in theory, ought to to be followed say among other things that translators should
"set their rates at levels that allow them to deliver, on an ongoing basis, the quality levels that their clients require."
From my professional view, that simply means I can't get a job here. And why would I want that bad job anyway?
That's no way to run a successful business. And people doing this can't be professionals IMO. Believe me I tried the job board. Show me one professional translator who has within the last couple of years gotten a job with a fair price by bidding and winning that bid.
Fiona commented:
Fiona Grace Peterson wrote:
ProZ would lose customers, but it would gain a different type of client and perhaps regain that credibility it has lost over the past years, among its users first and foremost. How many have abandoned the site due to the policies of the Jobs Board?
Proz.com has no reason to change anything, as for example trying to gain a different (= smaller) clientele. Everything works fine for them. The more newbie members, the better. I doubt they care if you or I abandon the site.
[Edited at 2015-08-24 04:08 GMT]
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