| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | Non-native speakers reviewing your edits Thread poster: Elizabeth Morris
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Hello all,
I recently accepted a job to review a translation that, while not too bad, was clearly not done by a native English speaker--I'm not sure if it was done by the client or another person, or some combination of people. I made my changes, working to make the English more accurately reflect the original Russian in a way an English-speaking audience would best understand, and also to make the English sound natural. When I sent back the reviewed version with tracked changes, I ... See more Hello all,
I recently accepted a job to review a translation that, while not too bad, was clearly not done by a native English speaker--I'm not sure if it was done by the client or another person, or some combination of people. I made my changes, working to make the English more accurately reflect the original Russian in a way an English-speaking audience would best understand, and also to make the English sound natural. When I sent back the reviewed version with tracked changes, I then received in a return a heavily marked up review of my review--"corrections" of my English, with some parts simply changed back to the first ungrammatical translations, and other parts just completely changed to third variants--and still other parts that had been fine in the translation and I had left alone were now changed, with extensive questions about some of these changes in the comments section. They seem to think that I will now re-review the heavily-changed text as a matter of course. For many of the changes they made, I would simply change it back to my version or to the original if I were to review again...I want to make this client happy, but I am not going to re-review what is essentially a new text for free, so I am now trying to explain to them what I will or won't do in this situation.
I have noticed that everyone has different definitions of "proofread," "review," "edit," but I never expected someone to expect unlimited feedback on their writing for the price of a single review. Have any of you encountered this kind of situation--a non-native-speaker who makes a bunch of changes to your changes and sends it back to you? I feel that there must be something I can say to every client in the beginning to avoid this kind of situation and set correct expectations, but I'm not sure how to explain the line between appropriate feedback and unreasonable expectations. What do you do to avoid these misunderstandings? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Adieu 
Ukrainian to English
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If you feel like this a good future opportunity, either stand by your work carefully or kowtow diplomatically.
Otherwise.... it might make more sense to agree just so they go away faster.
There's A LOT of people who revert revised translations from Russian into a mess of passive voice, "of the this of the that of the something else", re-order sentences back to Russian word order, and fiercely fight for the integrity of word-for-word translations of bulky канцеля�... See more If you feel like this a good future opportunity, either stand by your work carefully or kowtow diplomatically.
Otherwise.... it might make more sense to agree just so they go away faster.
There's A LOT of people who revert revised translations from Russian into a mess of passive voice, "of the this of the that of the something else", re-order sentences back to Russian word order, and fiercely fight for the integrity of word-for-word translations of bulky канцелярит.
Pick your battles. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Adieu
Ukrainian to English
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Sometimes, these things are done for the pettiest of reasons.
I've received "feedback" that amounted to little more than a bunch of superfluous edits to hide the root cause: one of the client's low-ranking employees was peeved that I just translated their job title properly, instead of facebook stalking them to learn what THEY mistakenly believe their job title translates to.
Perhaps something you did annoyed someone on their end. In that case, the rest of the edits may... See more Sometimes, these things are done for the pettiest of reasons.
I've received "feedback" that amounted to little more than a bunch of superfluous edits to hide the root cause: one of the client's low-ranking employees was peeved that I just translated their job title properly, instead of facebook stalking them to learn what THEY mistakenly believe their job title translates to.
Perhaps something you did annoyed someone on their end. In that case, the rest of the edits may well have been invented just to make you look bad.
[Edited at 2021-08-07 19:57 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Elizabeth Morris
United States
Local time: 05:24
Russian to English
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TOPIC STARTER
Adieu wrote:
Sometimes, these things are done for the pettiest of reasons.
I've received "feedback" that amounted to little more than a bunch of superfluous edits to hide the root cause: one of the client's low-ranking employees was peeved that I just translated their job title properly, instead of facebook stalking them to learn what THEY mistakenly believe their job title translates to.
Perhaps something you did annoyed someone on their end. In that case, the rest of the edits may well have been invented just to make you look bad.
[Edited at 2021-08-07 19:57 GMT]
That sounds extremely off-putting! I am wondering if I should just stop accepting jobs to review translations that were done by non-native speakers, or if I should always charge more for them than I have been (I would have for this one if I had known this would happen, but the translation wasn't too bad to begin with, which makes it all the stranger that the client is now changing parts of it that I left alone). The trouble is that since I've started freelancing I've gotten the impression that many, many clients in Russia prefer to have a Russian-speaker do the first translation and a native English speaker do the review, I assume because they think it comes out cheaper; these types of reviews seem to make up the majority.
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Adieu
Ukrainian to English
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| How much were you charging? | Aug 7, 2021 |
And even more importantly, do THEY think it is a lot?
I've noticed that prices you grudgingly accept as barely-worthwhile as a native speaker and Westerner are often at that "upper edge of acceptable" for smaller Russian clients and create odd expectations.
Elizabeth Morris wrote: Adieu wrote:
Sometimes, these things are done for the pettiest of reasons.
I've received "feedback" that amounted to little more than a bunch of superfluous edits to hide the root cause: one of the client's low-ranking employees was peeved that I just translated their job title properly, instead of facebook stalking them to learn what THEY mistakenly believe their job title translates to.
Perhaps something you did annoyed someone on their end. In that case, the rest of the edits may well have been invented just to make you look bad.
[Edited at 2021-08-07 19:57 GMT] That sounds extremely off-putting! I am wondering if I should just stop accepting jobs to review translations that were done by non-native speakers, or if I should always charge more for them than I have been (I would have for this one if I had known this would happen, but the translation wasn't too bad to begin with, which makes it all the stranger that the client is now changing parts of it that I left alone). The trouble is that since I've started freelancing I've gotten the impression that many, many clients in Russia prefer to have a Russian-speaker do the first translation and a native English speaker do the review, I assume because they think it comes out cheaper; these types of reviews seem to make up the majority.
| | | | Elizabeth Morris
United States
Local time: 05:24
Russian to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Half of my standard translation rate | Aug 7, 2021 |
Adieu wrote:
And even more importantly, do THEY think it is a lot?
I've noticed that prices you grudgingly accept as barely-worthwhile as a native speaker and Westerner are often at that "upper edge of acceptable" for smaller Russian clients and create odd expectations.
I have been charging about half of my standard translation rate (which is the same as the Proz average rate per word for Russian>English translation) for reviewing others' translations--which I think is normal based on what I've seen others say they charge for reviewing, but I only started freelancing this year so I could be wrong about that. But I think this rate really only makes sense for reviewing translations done by a professional who is native in the target language. I'm not sure if this client thinks it is a lot--but they know that it is the lowest my prices go, since I told them the whole possible range before they sent me the specific text to quote on.
| | | | Adieu
Ukrainian to English
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| So 0.05 per word? | Aug 7, 2021 |
With or without match discounts? Specific familiar topics or anything and everything?
In any case, Russian clients are likely to consider that pretty expensive (it's more of a western client price). Maybe that is why they are picking on you.
[Edited at 2021-08-07 21:21 GMT]
| | | | Elizabeth Morris
United States
Local time: 05:24
Russian to English
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TOPIC STARTER | I don't understand | Aug 7, 2021 |
Adieu wrote:
With or without match discounts? Specific familiar topics or anything and everything?
In any case, Russian clients are likely to consider that pretty expensive (it's more of a western client price). Maybe that is why they are picking on you.
[Edited at 2021-08-07 21:21 GMT]
I use a CAT tool when I translate, not when I edit and proofread someone else's translation. I'm not sure how that would work because it involves two separate documents to begin with, the Russian and the English translation. Is that something you do?
Even Russian agencies who theoretically host all work in their own platform like Smartcat have only ever asked me to edit/proofread by using the track changes tool in Microsoft Word, there hasn't been comparison with a TM, and while the rates they offered me themselves do discount a % of the full rate for matches on translations, they pay a single rate for every kind of match in editing except for repetitions. And that editing rate is higher than what I've charged this direct client.
[Edited at 2021-08-07 21:55 GMT]
[Edited at 2021-08-07 21:55 GMT]
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| Spare your nerves... | Aug 7, 2021 |
Elizabeth Morris wrote:
I am wondering if I should just stop accepting jobs to review translations that were done by non-native speakers, or if I should always charge more for them than I have been.
Been there, done that. Got lots of these from the two biggest clients of mine (large international agencies). At one moment, I even composed a list of typical errors in non-native Russian-English translations and was sending it out on every possible occasion. After a year or so, I realised the futility of my effort: the Russian education system has been perpetuating these errors for decades and keeps churning out graduates with the same problems. So I stopped accepting non-native jobs. Guess what? Instead of non-native speakers with at least some experience in the subject field, I started getting texts by natives with hardly any knowledge of the subject. So I stopped editing for these two clients altogether.
| | | | Adieu
Ukrainian to English
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In that case, I would charge that much or more too.
I hate track changes in Word with a passion.
I charge 0.035 / no match discounts / $50 min fee on revision in MemoQ and only take jobs in one specialization, for which I have loads of translation memory.
It may look a bit low, but I can breeze through 20k words in a long day (done well in good conscience, no select-all-ctrl-enter bs).
Elizabeth Morris wrote: Adieu wrote:
With or without match discounts? Specific familiar topics or anything and everything?
In any case, Russian clients are likely to consider that pretty expensive (it's more of a western client price). Maybe that is why they are picking on you.
[Edited at 2021-08-07 21:21 GMT] I use a CAT tool when I translate, not when I edit and proofread someone else's translation. I'm not sure how that would work because it involves two separate documents to begin with, the Russian and the English translation. Is that something you do? Even Russian agencies who theoretically host all work in their own platform like Smartcat have only ever asked me to edit/proofread by using the track changes tool in Microsoft Word, there hasn't been comparison with a TM, and while the rates they offered me themselves do discount a % of the full rate for matches on translations, they pay a single rate for every kind of match in editing except for repetitions. And that editing rate is higher than what I've charged this direct client. [Edited at 2021-08-07 21:55 GMT] [Edited at 2021-08-07 21:55 GMT]
[Edited at 2021-08-07 23:26 GMT]
[Edited at 2021-08-07 23:26 GMT]
[Edited at 2021-08-07 23:27 GMT]
| | | | Elizabeth Morris
United States
Local time: 05:24
Russian to English
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TOPIC STARTER | I found out what happened--totally new translation | Aug 7, 2021 |
I found out what happened here. The client told me that they actually, intentionally returned to me a second, different translation of the same text that was done by "a native speaker of English" at a Russian agency (definitely not a real native speaker!). The client didn't seem to even realize how inappropriate it is to send one translation, get it reviewed, then send someone else's translation of the same text to be reviewed again on the same order.
| | | | Elizabeth Morris
United States
Local time: 05:24
Russian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Adieu wrote:
In that case, I would charge that much or more too.
I hate track changes in Word with a passion.
I charge 0.035 / no match discounts / $50 min fee on revision in MemoQ and only take jobs in one specialization, for which I have loads of translation memory.
It may look a bit low, but I can breeze through 20k words in a long day (done well in good conscience, no select-all-ctrl-enter bs).
Wow that sounds like a great setup...I don't have training in fields like medical or legal translation, my expertise is more in the arts, history, philosophy...areas where there are probably fewer repetitions and every job is different. I like the work itself but I'm definitely not making that kind of money!
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Stepan Konev
Russian Federation
Local time: 12:24
English to Russian
@Adieu, why do you lean on the topic starter to know her rate and discounts? Who are you to feel like you have the right to demand this information? Are you an investigator? You develop so many unfounded suspicions even though you have no idea of the situation.
@Elizabeth Morris
I don't know why did they do that either. I don't see how could they benefit from this behavior... Maybe they are trying to modify your translation as a part of their rewriting work (SEO/SMM or what th... See more @Adieu, why do you lean on the topic starter to know her rate and discounts? Who are you to feel like you have the right to demand this information? Are you an investigator? You develop so many unfounded suspicions even though you have no idea of the situation.
@Elizabeth Morris
I don't know why did they do that either. I don't see how could they benefit from this behavior... Maybe they are trying to modify your translation as a part of their rewriting work (SEO/SMM or what they call it). But no matter what their purpose is, they behave in an unprofessional manner. I go with Anton Konashenok in this regard. Actually, I don't accept any work that involves the MS Word Track Changes feature. As far as I understand, these are two diefferent problems: editing a text translated by a non-native translator, and struggling with idiots. If I were you, I would make a mandatory condition: either you review a job once or you don't review it at all. Period. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Stepan Konev
Russian Federation
Local time: 12:24
English to Russian
Elizabeth Morris wrote:
The client told me that they actually, intentionally returned to me a second, different translation of the same text Oh, my guess was right
| | | | Elizabeth Morris
United States
Local time: 05:24
Russian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Stepan Konev wrote:
As far as I understand, these are two diefferent problems: editing a text translated by a non-native translator, and struggling with idiots. If I were you, I would make a mandatory condition: either you review a job once or you don't review it at all. Period.
Thanks for your thoughts, I think you're absolutely right and I'm going to start being very clear about this with new clients from the beginning. I always like to give a sense of reasonable flexibility about revisions--like if I actually made a mistake, I would want the client to be comfortable with asking me to fix it--but I think I'm giving the impression that I'm a little too flexible...I also think I somehow keep getting private clients who have never hired an editor or translator before, so they don't have a sense of where the boundaries are. I'm still getting established as a freelancer, so unfortunately I'll probably be dealing with problem #2 for a while!
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