May 28, 2013 18:12
10 yrs ago
1 viewer *
French term

décor praticable

French to English Art/Literary Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting Theatre
Un décor praticable c’est un décor qui est suffisamment robuste pour accueillir des figurants, des chanteurs ou des comparses

Discussion

Chahine Yalla May 29, 2013:
Praticable sounds to my French ears as something on which you can walk, stand, move...
Paul Hirsh (asker) May 29, 2013:
I would like to thank you all for an interestng and very lively discussion!
kashew May 29, 2013:
The source is a definition: so what's the whole translation? "robuste" and "pour accueillir" smacks of structural integrity to my ears. All about loading. There's an architectural term for "can be stood on" that might fit? On ProZ not so long ago. Maybe "practicable décor" does mean that?
David Vaughn May 28, 2013:
context The context is adequate for anyone with sufficient knowledge of the area to give a credible answer. Those who are looking to educate themselves by doing research can do so. But complaining that you do not have enough knowledge to understand the question is not particularly helpful. It is true that some people weigh down this forum with repetitive demands for "context". The real context is knowledge of the field, which in this case - as often - has been quite adequately explained. Ignorance is not a vice. But blaming one's own ignorance on others is.
Helen Shiner May 28, 2013:
@TonyM For lack of space, I have to reply here. Quite possibly; only additional context will nail it.
Tony M May 28, 2013:
@ Gert Ah but it does, that is my whole point!

I was not saying anyone was a layman, I was merely seeking to point out that there are some terms (like this one) that have a special meaning as part of technical jargon, quite distinct from their everyday meaning as used in a lay context. Just because someone is unfamiliar with the specialist meaning doesn't invalidate the fact that this is the meaning in a specific technical context.

The explanation Paul gives is a perfect (though restricted) definition of what 'practical' means when used as a technical term.
Gert Sass (M.A.) May 28, 2013:
@Tony For one thing, I think we both have grown up beyond the level of calling each other 'laymen' in anything we do. For instance, I could easily describe myself as someone who appears on stage on a regular basis, while I would never even think of diminishing the achievements of any of the helping hands involved.
Back to the actual topic, my major point (as a layman, if you really wish) is that the very general definition Paul has provided does not really seem to match the underlying concept of 'practicability' in 'practical ladder/door/telephone' etc. as per your suggestion, especially while considering everything you said about 'practicals'. In other words, Paul's definition doesn't seem to 'hold water' yet, as compared to your (valuable) suggestion. OK?
Tony M May 28, 2013:
@ Daryo Ah, now 'praticable' in that sense is a 'riser' in theatre jargon.

However, I'm far from convinced that is the meaning required here; if it were, I fail to see why the writer would have preceded it by 'décor'.
Daryo May 28, 2013:
"un praticable" is a rectangular platform, often foldable, that is used for building temporary stages by assembling together several "praticable". Once assembled a stage made of many joined "praticable" can sustain even the most energetic group dancing.
Have seen and heard first hand "praticable" being used in this way, and it seems to fit the context of this ST. OTOH, is it just called "stage platform" or something else in EN, I'm not sure.
"décor praticable" would be simply a stage built of several "praticable".
Tony M May 28, 2013:
@ Gert No, I'm afraid your suggestion just wouldn't hold water; it's important to realize that this is specialist technical terminology, and to depart from the proper term would sound as odd as calling a 'television' a 'distance-viewing box'.

In the specific context of stage scenery, it is not "self-understood" — the most apparently solid-looking bits of scenery are often flimsy and totally unreal — like papier-mâché rocks; so in the specific technical world of the theatre, it is vitally important to have the proper technical terms to describe and discuss 'real' as distinct from 'fake' things — specifically, of course, if they are things that might be walked / sat / climbed upon, when safety comes into the picture.

I repeat, for me, as a theatre technician, the context given is more than adequate to arrive at the correct term, other than in respect of finding the best form of wording to use overall; but whatever form of wording is eventually used, 'practical' needs to be in there somewhere, and not some layman's fudge.
Gert Sass (M.A.) May 28, 2013:
Sorry: 'praticable', of course
Gert Sass (M.A.) May 28, 2013:
My 2 cents Agree with Phil and Helen that more context is desirable: Considering the very general nature of the definition provided, which hardly describes more than what is basically self-understood - i.e., actors, singers, and the like should not unexpectedly get "buried" beneath stage elements or be caused to fall off the stage - it would be interesting to see the term in a context where it is actually applied and supposed to "do its work".
That being said, and taking the "problem" in Tony's Note added at 22 mins into account (which IMO seems to arise from the English use of "practical" rather than the French use of "practicable" as in your definition), I am wondering whether "usable/supportive (stage set)" mightn't do to help overcome these restraints.
philgoddard May 28, 2013:
I do take your word for it now that you've provided a reference!
Tony M May 28, 2013:
@ Phil Please just take my word for it: this is specialist technical terminology; period.

And it fits perfectly into the context; the explanation is totally comprehensible: "a scenic element / piece of scenery (etc.) is referred to as 'practical' if it is sufficiently sturdy/solid/strong for it to be able to hold (the weight of) perfomers..." — of course, this is only one fairly narrow definition in one specific instance.
philgoddard May 28, 2013:
Tony I fully accept your definition of the word "practical" - I hadn't seen the word being used in this way before. But it just doesn't seem to fit the context, such as it is. "Un décor praticable c’est un décor qui est suffisamment robuste..."
philgoddard May 28, 2013:
I don't "police" anything. I just get frustrated at questions that give one sentence in a vacuum and expect us to give a precise answer. I could just ignore these and move on to the next question, but I find that asking for a couple more sentences of context helps to solve the puzzle. Often, the asker thinks there's no more context, and there is. But if it's too much effort for you, never mind!
Tony M May 28, 2013:
@ Phil I think we all just have to accept that some terms crop up which we may not ourselves be familiar with — and to be honest, in that situation, no amount of extra context is really likely to make a great deal of difference.

To myself, the context, source text extract and explanation given by Asker are all perfectly adequate and understandable, given my prior professional experience in this field.

Given the underlying term needed here, my only remaining query would be how the wider context might or might not influence the best way to render the whole idea in EN.
Helen Shiner May 28, 2013:
With philgoddard Well, for a start, Paul, you might have expanded on 'theatre' and explained what sort of document you are translating. You do know, as we all do, what is asked of us when we post a question. Surrounding sentences also illuminate the issue generally. But you don't need anyone to tell you this.
Paul Hirsh (asker) May 28, 2013:
Phil I notice you police all the questions with the same demand for more context. Have you thought why you do it? Here the context is in the category: theater. The writer himself did not think it necessary to explain the term any more, so what more do you expect me to put?
philgoddard May 28, 2013:
You should ALWAYS provide detailed context, and you should know that by now. The French is not entirely clear, which is presumably why you're asking what on the face of it looks like a non-pro question.
Also, if Tony's answer is right, it's NOT a definition.
Paul Hirsh (asker) May 28, 2013:
Come on Phil, what context do you need when you have the definition?
Tony M May 28, 2013:
robust strong / sturdy

It means that huge iron girder isn't made out of hollow cardboard or expanded polystyrene and you really CAN walk across it...
Tony M May 28, 2013:
@ Phil Sorry, Phil, but both these terms are techncial jargon in the business, and DO have a very specific, non-redundant meaning; please read my answer below for lengthy explanations ;-)
philgoddard May 28, 2013:
You haven't given the full context, but I don't think the word 'praticable' adds anything to the sentence, and 'practical' sounds odd in English. It's not clear what 'robuste' means either - it doesn't fall over if you touch it? What does it say before and after this?

Proposed translations

+2
11 mins
Selected

practical

That's the way we refer to soemthing (GB) that really works; often, it is used as a noun 'a practical'; or it is used as an adjective to qualify some other noun describing the specific item: 'a practical staircase'.

It's harder when you want a general term like 'décor', since we can't say 'a practical scenery' — and a 'practical set' would be a bit silly, really.

So you might be stuck with saying something like 'a practical scenic element' etc. — it really all depends on the specific context in which it is used.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 mins (2013-05-28 18:35:07 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The problem is, an entire stage set is by its very nature 'practical' — actors must be able to enter it and walk around; so at that level, it is taken for granted and wouldn't really be described as 'practical'; hence if used in this way, it would tend to be read with the other meaning of 'practical' — i.e. that it is functional, sensible, handy, ... For example, we might say that of a set that comes apart easily for striking, with easily-handled, not-too-heavy sections...

One can have a 'practical ladder' (one you can actually climb up), a 'practical door' (one that actually opens), a 'practical telephone' (it rings) 'a practical lamp' (it lights); one might have a 'practical bridge' — high up between two parts of the set, which actors can walk across (like for a battlement scene)

But for an entire set, I think you'll need to re-phrase it a bit to make it sound like natural technical jargon in EN.

For example "A set composed entirely of practicals" (or: 'practical elements')

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 57 mins (2013-05-28 19:10:50 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I remember one memorable occasion when former Coronation Street star Pat Phoenix was in a touring play that came to our theatre, and she had to descend from the (pretend) first floor landing of the set down the supposedly practical staircase; only it was fixed very well, and she came a mighty cropper! Like the true old trooper she was, she played out the rest of the show with what turned out to be a badly sprained ankle!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-05-28 19:24:16 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

See this rather helpful stage glossary:

http://www.theatrecrafts.com/results.php

PRACTICAL
Any object which appears to do onstage the same job it would do in life, or any working apparatus (eg light switch or tap). Light fittings which have to light up on the set are called Practicals.



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2013-05-28 21:28:38 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

For the sake of completeness, let me repeat here what I said above in answer to Daryo's discussion comment: a 'praticable' as a specific type of scenic element is generically referred to in EN (GB) as a 'riser' — some kind of dais or platform.

However, I repeat my reservations that this is the intended meaning here.
Peer comment(s):

agree Verginia Ophof
23 mins
Thanks, Verginia!
agree philgoddard
1 hr
Thanks, Phil!
neutral Helen Shiner : You are evidently very well qualified to provide expert advice here. The point you make, however, about the entire stage set needing to be practical in a very real sense begs the question as to what very specific point is being made here in the text.
3 hrs
I think there, Helen, we really get into another question: what is the meaning of 'décor' in this source text? My firm belief is that it needs to be interpreted as 'a scenic element', rather than its commoner meaning of 'an entire stage set'.
neutral kashew : I think there's something better. The source is a definition - so what's the whole translation? "robuste" and "pour accueillir" smacks of structural integrity to my ears. There's an architectural term for "can be stood on" that might fit?
19 hrs
Thanks, J, but this really is the technical term in the theatre.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
13 mins

feasible/practical setting/ stage set

.......
Peer comment(s):

neutral Tony M : I couldn't really agree with 'feasible', and although 'practical' is of course identical to my own suggestion, as I have explained there is a problem applying it to an entire set in this way.
3 mins
Something went wrong...
4 hrs

functional set

Something went wrong...

Reference comments

2 hrs
Reference:

"praticable" as a noun, in theatres

praticable [pʀatikabl] → synonymes
1 adjectif
a [projet, moyen, opération] ▶ practicable, ▶ feasible
[chemin] ▶ passable, ▶ negotiable, ▶ practicable
■ route difficilement praticable en hiver : road which is almost impassable in winter
b /Théâtre/; [porte, décor] ▶ working
2 nom masculin
/Théâtre/ « décor » ▶ piece of working scenery
/Cinéma/ « plate-forme » ▶ gantry

/Sport/ ▶ floor mat

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2013-05-28 21:00:32 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------


Praticable (théâtre)
Le praticable est un objet utilisé dans le spectacle, le plus souvent en bois sur une structure, en aluminium.
Ces plateaux de formes rectangulaires montés sur pieds réglables, sont utilisés de toutes sortes de façons pour créer un lieu, une scène, différents niveaux (musiciens), ou tout simplement pour s'asseoir, ils sont le plus souvent peints en noir et les gros praticables sont montés sur roulettes.
[http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praticable_(théâtre)]
Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree Tony M : Absolutely! The translations are a bit suspect, but the definitions are perfect.
4 mins
Thanks!
agree philgoddard : Maybe "working" is the answer.
5 hrs
Something went wrong...
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search