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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

statues sulpiciennes

English translation:

statues [of ...] in the style of "Saint-Sulpician" plaster saints

Added to glossary by Charles Davis
May 4, 2015 10:51
9 yrs ago
1 viewer *
French term

statues sulpiciennes

French to English Art/Literary Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting History of art / religious art
ST: il unit dans le même pèlerinage chrétiens et musulmans qui se retrouvent devant la crypte dolmen d’une chapelle abritant les statues sulpiciennes endommagées de Maximilien, Marc, Martinien, Denis, Jean, Séraphin et Constantin. Ces sept martyrs de l’Eglise d’Orient [...]

The term in French is "statues sulpiciennes". It relates to "art sulpicien" (also known as "art saint sulpice") which is a term for mass-produced religious items e.g. statues, paintings, rosaries etc which are called "art sulpicien" because they were (and to some extent still are) sold in the shops in the area around the Saint Sulpice church in Paris.

As far as I can tell this type of art had its heyday in the late 1800s and was considered, I think, the official art of the Catholic church for a while. The US equivalent is Barclay Street art (in Manhattan) because the manufacture of these religious items was extremely popular and it later spread to America. The statues in this sulpicien style are described as being realistic, detailed, soft, sentimental, feminine, ornamental. They are generally in painted plaster. You find these statues in churches and in people’s homes. The term sulpicien can be used in a derogatory way (a type of religious kitsch or to mean very run-of-the-mill, cheap religious art) but it is also seems to be used in a more neutral way to describe the soft, sentimental, if slightly unrefined art. I have seen some church websites saying that their statues are "statues sulpiciennes" and I think in the context of my article this is how it is being used.

The picture of the statues sulpiciennes which my text refers to can be found at: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sept-Saints_(Vieux-Marché)#Desc...
The image is is on the right and is quite small but if you click on it you can enlarge it.

I don’t think the term Sulpician art is widely used (if at all) in English. But this art was so widespread that I wonder if we do have a way of referring to it in English? Of if not any suggestions of how to handle it? Unfortunately I cannot use a footnote in this particular translation as that would not conform to text-type (highbrow magazine) norms.

I have come across the term art naïf in English, but it seems slightly different? What do you think? The other thought I had was to use "painted plaster statues" with a loss of some of the expressive meaning of "sulpicienne", but I don't know if that is deviating a bit too far from the source text?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Many thanks
Rebecca
Proposed translations (English)
4 +2 statues [of ...] in the style of "Saint-Sulpician" plaster saints
4 +1 popular religious statuary sold around the church of Saint Sulpice
4 +1 statues [...] in the popular, somewhat naive "Saint-Sulpician" style
3 +1 sulpician religious statues
3 figurine-style statues
References
Sulpician
Change log

May 18, 2015 04:21: Charles Davis Created KOG entry

Discussion

John Holland May 6, 2015:
@Rebecca Please see the note I added to my answer for my proposal. (Since I am making an argument for my own suggestion, I put my comments there rather than in this discussion.)
Rebecca Lees (asker) May 6, 2015:
housing the damaged, St. Sulpician-style [descriptors] statues of Sts. […]
Rebecca Lees (asker) May 6, 2015:
@all Thank you all for your discussion entries yesterday. A most interesting topic! Based on your suggestions, I think it looks like the best way forward is to use St-Sulpician style plus one or two descriptors. I will need to have a further think about the descriptors.
Helen Shiner May 5, 2015:
@Charles Sculptors had been itinerant since the Middle Ages, and no doubt beforehand. Traders in decorative objects, too. And clergy travelled to the capital, Paris, routinely. Really totally possible one way or another.
Charles Davis May 5, 2015:
Well, if that's true, problem solved: the translation is straightforward. I leave it to others to judge how likely it is that these statues for a chapel in a fairly remote spot in Brittany were procured in the eighteenth century from a workshop in the Saint-Sulpice quarter of Paris, rather than being made locally. To me it doesn't seem very likely, but I'm not an expert.

In trying unsuccessfully to find evidence one way or the other, I have come across Luzel's article on the chapel, published in Mélusine in 1878. It contains some interesting (and not very flattering) details:

"Les sept statues, de bois et presque de grandeur naturelle, sont rangées debout sur une seule ligne. [...]
Les sept frères son uniformément vêtus et outrageusement peinturlurés, vernis, reluisants et jolis garçons à souhait."
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k57904847/f112.zoom.r=S...
Helen Shiner May 5, 2015:
Last post; Rebecca - apologies for bombardment There is a group of seven sculptures. Since they are 18th-century, then we should go with the meaning as applied to work of that period, i.e. that they were produced in workshops (sold in shops - doubtlessly the same thing) in the Saint Sulpice quarter. This is not an aesthetic matter, but equivalent to Frankish or Bavarian or whatever. Kitsch is a relatively modern term and to use it for work from the 18th century really is anachronistic. At its earliest, it could be used for late 19th-century work, but it's really a 20th-century thing. Sulpicien in its 19th-century meaning is not what we should be using/seeking a translation for here. It is simply denoting the place of origin.
Charles Davis May 5, 2015:
These are the ones they're talking about http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Les_Sept-...

I wouldn't say they're kitsch, exactly. But what I (or you) think of them is beside the point. What we have to decide is what the author meant when he/she called them "sulpitiennes", and find English words to express that, whether or not we're going to keep the word "Sulpician" itself. This has to be done even if we think the term is inapplicable in any conceivable sense. I don't think it's legitimate to put something that expresses our own aesthetic response to these statues, without regard to the connotations of "sulpitien".

My guess is that the author meant that these look like mass-produced, rather crudely executed, thoroughly conventional popular statuary, without individuality or distinction. But who knows.
Christopher Crockett May 5, 2015:
@ Helen Well, Kitsch is a pretty elastic term (i.e., I can’t definite it, but I know what it is when I see it), and I suppose I’d agree that perhaps it does not fit
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sept-Saints_(Vieux-Marché)#/med...

What that statue is, is a workmanlike copy, made by a clearly 2nd rank sculptor for a provincial setting, of a piece (probably) made by a more accomplished artist for a more prestigious setting (probably the major church in the region).

If I can’t call that pietà Kitsch, I would not –using the same criteria– call it “sulpicien” either (if for no other reason than because it just ain’t Kitsch enough).

In actuality, the problem of how to see this genre of secondary, “popular” art is a rather complex one; luckily, Rebecca doesn’t have to solve it.

Trying to solve her specific problem, I really can’t see any good way to include the problematic “sulpticien” word/concept, simply because it is so unfamiliar (nonexistent?) in English –and thus would require a considerable degree of explanation– and because it might not really be applicable to the sculptures in question.
Helen Shiner May 5, 2015:
@Christopher Please look at the images Rebecca herself provides. They are 18th-century works. They are not kitsch.
The point I made about religious statuary acting as models for cheaper, smaller works was, indeed, generic, so I don't understand that point either. Goodness, if only everyone would actually read/look at the information provided. What happened in the 19th century with this term is pretty well redundant here.
Christopher Crockett May 5, 2015:
@ John & Helen A good part of our problem is that Rebecca's text applies this problematic term in an anachronistic fashion (as you point out, Charles), though it is only anachronistic if we literally restrict the term to late 19th c. popular religious sculpture.

But it seems that, in current French usage, it can, indeed, be applied to works which are centuries earlier: "Ce style est apparu au XVIe siècle..." (fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Style_sulpicien)

Now, much of that "early" sulpicien stuff was, indeed, "based on…sculpture in [a] church" (pace Helen) –but such “copying” was always the case. I’ve seen 13th c. contracts with “ÿmagiers” which call for the sculpting of a figure destined for a village church to be “just like the one we see in the cathedral of Chartres,” and the 18th c. “Seven Saints” statues in Rebecca’s text were very likely based on ones found in some other, more prestigious place.

What makes them “sulpicien” is those features which they share with (Dog help us) the late 19th c. very popular, thoroughly Kitsch, statuary which gave rise to the name which is now applied to the whole corpus of such work, no matter what it’s period might be.
Charles Davis May 5, 2015:
I still think it's very unlikely that the author means that these particular statues actually came from Saint-Sulpice. Surely he's referring to their style. And "(saint)-sulpicien" is unquestionably a stylistic descriptor.

As such, there is also no doubt that it often, I would say normally, carries pejorative connotations. Practically every definition you can find says something negative about this sort of art, and the www.universalis.fr source is no exception, as John has just said: "médiocre qualité", "mièvrerie", "affadissement". Why, the Trésor itself says:

"A. Qui appartient, qui a trait à la congrégation des prêtres de Saint-Sulpice [...]
B. Péj. Qui est caractérisé par un aspect mièvre, conventionnel et d'un goût souvent douteux. Art sulpicien."
http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/sulpicien

To put it crudely, "art sulpicien" is, by definition, bad art. I don't think the author is emphasising this particularly, but I don't think it can be ignored. The Church itself turned against this kind of art in the mid-twentieth century, but it remains very popular with the (older) faithful.
John Holland May 5, 2015:
@Helen I did read that helpful link when it was posted by Nikki yesterday. It's too bad that only the beginning of it is available without a subscription.

Here is one part I find relevant to our discussion here (from the Encyclopædia Universalis link):
"...art industriel et économique, de médiocre qualité, où la mièvrerie et l'affadissement du style rassurent et portent en quelque sorte le cachet d'un art officiel, orthodoxe et sans excès."

I would not get all of that from the idea that it is "popular" and "typical of the Saint-Sulpice area," but maybe that's just me. It is, however, why I thought it would be good to try to describe the style with an adjective or two.
Helen Shiner May 5, 2015:
@John You might find this interesting: http://www.universalis.fr/encyclopedie/art-saint-sulpice/
John Holland May 5, 2015:
@Helen That's really the question.

Without intending to engage in a stylistic analysis, I would still want to ask whether we know that the statues in Vieux-Marché were in fact sold around the church of Saint Sulpice or produced in workshops in the quartier of Saint Sulpice in Paris.

Or, alternatively, do the statues in question look like statues sold and produced there? In this second possible case, what does that mean?
Helen Shiner May 5, 2015:
@John I agree that 'popular' on its own would not do it, but I give 'sold around the church of Saint Sulpice' or 'produced in workshops in the quartier of Saint Sulpice', which should cover it, I feel, in this context. The text, or at least the bit we can see, does not call for a stylistic analysis.
John Holland May 5, 2015:
@Helen I just wanted to add that I do agree with you that "naive" and, by extension "folk," do not have quite the right nuance. I am also not wanting to extend the possible "pejorative" connotation any further than "not fine art" in this instance. In other words, I think we agree on these points.

However, I am less sure that "popular" includes all the nuances of "sulpicien."
Helen Shiner May 5, 2015:
@John It is typically called popular religious statuary, the popular being enough to suggest it is relatively cheaply made. Naive can't be used since it suggests no training on behalf of those producing it. Folk art is another category, but again I wouldn't use it for similar reasons. My answer addresses both style and place. Without wishing to endlessly repeat myself, there is nothing pejorative in the FR and as translators surely we should not start trying to insert our views or views that aren't there? There may well be people who use the term pejoratively, but then there are people who use many terms pejoratively if the style in question does not find favour with them. I think I've said my piece now, so will butt out so the Asker is not overwhelmed with postings (at least from me!).
John Holland May 5, 2015:
@Helen What is at issue here, I think, is that the nature of the style, however we might agree to describe it, is something in its own right that goes beyond the place where the statues were made. This is not to deny that there is a connection between the style and the place, but rather that there are also particular additional connotations to the style itself.
Helen Shiner May 5, 2015:
@Charles I think the inference would be that they stem from these small workshops, which probably had "shop fronts". I don't see your objection.
Charles Davis May 5, 2015:
I must find time to read into this. What you say makes sense, although the Wikipedia article you cite says: "La fameuse expression style saint-sulpicien (qui signifie “art religieux un peu naïf, sans génie”) ne vient donc pas de l’église Saint-Sulpice à Paris en elle-même, mais des nombreuses échoppes qui vendaient des objets religieux autour de cette église." And the other part you've quoted doesn't actually say they were produced in that area (though maybe they were) but simply that they were sold there.

Maybe the Sept-Saints statues in this chapel in Vieux Marché actually were bought in a shop near Saint-Sulpice in Paris, and "sulpiciennes" is quite literal. It seems unlikely to me. But in any case, that's not the only way to interpret the word as used here.
Helen Shiner May 5, 2015:
@Charles It would be typical if it were. I haven't done the research. Local craftsmen did this all the time, since they were often active in workshops producing sculpture/icons both for the church and for the general populus. But regardless of this, the style does relate to work done in the quarter around the church. See "L'expression s'explique par le fait que le quartier Saint-Sulpice à Paris regroupait traditionnellement de nombreux magasins de livres, d'images et d'objets religieux. Ce quartier reste toujours actif dans ce secteur de type de librairies et de fournisseurs en objets religieux chrétiens." http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Style_sulpicien
Charles Davis May 5, 2015:
@Helen Thanks for that.

Are/were the "Sulpician" figures sold in shops around Saint-Sulpice reproductions of larger original statues in Saint-Sulpice itself? That isn't what I understood to be the case. Isn't it just that shops selling this kind of stuff were/are located in that area? There are to this day shops selling similar statuary all over Spain, for example, but I don't think the pieces they sell were ever reproductions of local models.

Be that as it may, I presume that these seven eighteenth-century statues in a Breton chapel are being described as "sulpiciennes" because they are in that manner, not that they originated in Saint-Sulpice or the surrounding area. They are surely not commercially produced objects at all. So the anachronism is not an issue. That was the point of my "literal-minded" remark.
Helen Shiner May 5, 2015:
A bit of sculpture history Presumably this figural sculpture was originally commissioned for the church of Saint Sulpice, in order for it to have been associated with it. Either that, or there was larger-scale sculpture in the church on which this smaller scale statuary was based. It is perfectly reasonable to consider the 18th-century sculptures to have been mass-produced (it does not have to mean machine-made). Many workshops internationally churned out icons, paintings and sculpture on a scale intended for personal, devotional and domestic use. So depending on the date they will have been produced in workshops and/or sold in shops on a mass-produced basis. Charles, it is not "literal-minded" to suggest this. It is factual. And Melissa, the figures will not be priceless. However, the original larger-scale works might have a considerably higher value than the mass-produced reproductions. But they are not what is being discussed here in the source text provided by the Asker.
Charles Davis May 5, 2015:
No, we must certainly not use a translation that gives it a more pejorative slant than the original. I don't think anyone is suggesting we should. For example, as has been said already, "kitsch" would be quite inappropriate here, although in many contexts that might be a suitable translation for "sulpiciennes". Not because calling these revered statues kitsch is beyond the pale, but because it's not reasonable to suppose that the author means that. All I'm saying is that we should not err in the other direction either and give it a less pejorative (or more reverential) slant than "sulpiciennes" can reasonably be understood to bear.
Melissa McMahon May 5, 2015:
Neutral sense of sulpician I think the potential distortion lies in giving a pejorative slant to what the asker herself believes is being used in a neutral sense - a soft, slightly unrefined style. I think my suggestion of "figurine-like", like the original, can be taken either way and is in no way "editing" the author's choice.
Charles Davis May 5, 2015:
@Melissa There is room for debate about whether retaining the term is confusing, but the second part of what you say here seems to me wrong in principle. In so far as "sulpiciennes" carries connotations of something cheap and commercial (as no doubt it potentially does), that is how the author has seen fit to describe these statues. And the distinction you draw between these connotations and the aesthetic point is a false one; the aesthetic point includes them. That you think this inappropriate does not entitle you to edit what the author has said to make it more seemly or appropriate in your judgement. The author is entitled to have his/her words translated faithfully.
Melissa McMahon May 5, 2015:
@ Charles I'm not saying "sulpician" is being used wrongly, just that any explanatory translation that retains the term is potentially confusing. The statues in question are priceless and sacred to 3 religions, so explicitly comparing them to something cheap and commercial instead of just translating the aesthetic point the term conveys is I think a problem.
Charles Davis May 5, 2015:
Anachronism The only problem with the descriptor is that it is obscure in English. I've said what I think about that; I think the arguments for retaining it are stronger than those for omitting it. But there is no problem with the descriptor in French. It is perfectly obvious that the author simply means that these statues are in a style comparable with or reminiscent of what was later called "art Saint-Sulpice". That kind of art was mass-produced from the 1840s, well before the term was coined, and the style, or elements of that style, can already be found in the eighteenth century. Anachronism is no argument, unless we're so literal-minded as to think that "sulpiciennes" actually means "sold in a shop near Saint-Sulpice".
Melissa McMahon May 5, 2015:
Problem with dating: 18th vs 19th century A problem with the descriptor, and hence the translation, is that "sulpician art" was a term invented in the 1890s to describe the religious merchandise at the time, whereas your statues are from the 1700s and not at all merchandise size. So they're "in the style of" the statues sold around Saint Sulpice only retrospectively... The Luzel description on the wikipedia page almost suggests "storybook style"...
Helen Shiner May 4, 2015:
@Rebecca Like Christopher, I've never heard of a specific term for this kind of statuary in all my years as an art historian. I'm not really sure turning 'sulpiciennes' into an adjective is very stylish in EN. I would be tempted to go with 'mass-produced religious statuary/figures similar to that/those which is/are sold in the streets around the church of Saint Sulpice'. Or something along those lines. Long-winded, I know, but at least it is clear. No need to go with kitsch, since there is no perjorative value judgment in the FR.
Charles Davis May 4, 2015:
Thank you, Christopher I've done as you suggest. The book is very interesting, I agree.
Christopher Crockett May 4, 2015:
@ Charles The books.google.com reference you gave us is to a quite wonderful article, "Kitsch" in _The Routledge Companion to Religion and Popular Culture_, available here:

http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=95f3bb7a384e8201a8d...

Lots & lots of interesting stuff in that.

Thanks, Charles.
Christopher Crockett May 4, 2015:
@ Charles In my 40+ years as an art historian (Medieval, not 19th c.) I've never seen this term --though, church hopping through hundreds of French villages, I've seen enough examples of this maudlin "art" (my favorite is the supremely grotesque "Curé d'Ars") which so accurately characterizes much of 19th-early 20th c. Catholicism and have often wondered (idly) if anyone has bothered to specifically study the phenomenon. So, I've been on the lookout for a term which encompasses it, and thank Rebecca for providing it here.

But the term clearly cannot be used without an accompanying explanation --and what you suggest, Charles, including putting it in quotes, is definitely the way to go.

Why not post that as an answer?

I know one "agree" you will be sure to get.
Rebecca Lees (asker) May 4, 2015:
Thanks for the clarification that art naif is not what I'm looking for. I take your points that I have been too cautious about using the technical term, so Sulpician or Saint-Sulpician are looking suitable. As much as I would like to incorporate a longer explanation, I cannot see a way to incorporate much more than this into the sentence and not loose the "flow" of the sentence. I will consider pointing additional details out in a separate document. Thanks for the links to the various documents/books too.
John Holland May 4, 2015:
@Charles You may be right about there being no need for any further commentary on the term. However, that is the kind of stylistic decision I would prefer to leave to the author and/or editor, when possible.
Charles Davis May 4, 2015:
See here, for example
https://books.google.es/books?id=EZasBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA293&lpg=P...
Charles Davis May 4, 2015:
Personally I would have no qualms about using the term "Sulpician" or "Saint-Sulpician". OK, it's not exactly well known, but it's not that obscure either; it's very widely used in writing about art and religion. It's quite a specific thing and I don't think the term should be excluded. The main thing, I think, is to provide enough clues to enable the reader to get it; something, maybe, along the lines of "painted plaster statues in the "Sulpician" style of popular religious art"; not necessarily that, exactly, but something concise along those lines. Pace John, I don't think anything more extensive on the origin and history of the term is called for. Any reader who wishes to know more has only to Google it, like the rest of us.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne May 4, 2015:
I agree with your reservations about the use of "naive" here.

Howabout "Sulpician" with the capital letter, which gives a traceable reference marker and retains the specificity?

See ref post.
John Holland May 4, 2015:
Thanks for the clarification on "highbrow magazine."

According the the French Wikipedia, the term was coined by Léon Bloy:
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Style_sulpicien

A quick bit of initial research suggests that Bloy's works have not been translated, which removes one avenue to see how other translators have dealt with the term. Maybe Rayner Heppenstall's book on Léon Bloy would be an interesting source...

In this case, I would imagine that it could be useful to add a translator's note with a simple explanation and maybe ask your client whether the information could be incorporated into the text if the magazine does not use notes. Something to the effect of: "The French novelist, essayist, pamphleteer and poet Léon Bloy coined this term in 1897 to describe popular, somewhat naive religious art." Something like that, depending on how much information is wanted...

I agree with your idea that "art naif" (or "naive art) is different. It seems too broad, and too possibly prejudicial, here (what your article mentions does not seem to have much to do with the work of Henri Rousseau or Grandma Moses, for example):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naïve_art
Nikki Scott-Despaigne May 4, 2015:
I don't think you can avoid using the specific technical term as that is precisely what it is. If you use "painted plaster statues" for example, that provides a description, but nothing of its specific nature, history and culture. Whilst the readership is not sepcialist, they are educated, you say and educated people are :
- not put off by unknown terms
- are likely to seek to inform themselves on its meaning and importance in context.
Dictionaries are not just for translators!

If the magazine is high-brow and rules out footnotes, then it probably rules in assumptions about reader's initiative! ;-)
Rebecca Lees (asker) May 4, 2015:
Target audience Hi John, thanks for your reply and the link. The target audience is more for a fairly educated reader, rather than specialists or academics. The main focus of the article is on religious tradition and this art term is the only reference to art in the article. I have seen Sulpician art used in some books on the history of art (I wasn't clear about thisin my original post - sorry), but it seems to always be given in the context of a lengthy explanation about what it is, which seems to be the case with the hits on google scholar as well.
John Holland May 4, 2015:
Audience Hi Rebecca,
Do you know who will be using the translation. That is, is it for specialists or academics (at the one extreme), the general public (at another) or perhaps somewhere in-between?
I ask because the term "Saint-Sulpician art" does appear in journal articles. See, for example:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q="Sulpician art"
Thanks in advance.

Proposed translations

+2
7 hrs
Selected

statues [of ...] in the style of "Saint-Sulpician" plaster saints

A suggestion for a possible way to handle this, encouraged by Christopher's comment. As I said in the discussion area, I think the specificity of the term should be retained, but it won't mean anything to most readers without some sort of explanation. This cries out for a footnote, but we can't have one (I've been in this position myself with things like upmarket travel magazines, where footnotes are not an option); the translation has to be autonomous. But the explanation will have to be brief as well as clear and accurate.

The formulation posted above is a slightly modified version of what I first suggested in the discussion. I don't know for sure whether the statues they're referring to are painted plaster, so I don't think it's safe to call them "painted plaster statues"; all we know is that they are in the style of "art Saint-Sulpice" statues, which are (typically) painted plaster. I'd favour "Saint-Sulpician" rather than just "Sulpician", on reflection, because I think more people will understand the allusion (most educated people have heard of Saint-Sulpice, but "Sulpician" won't ring so many bells). I'd put it in inverted commas, to acknowledge that it's a special term, and I'd leave out "painted" to make it more concise; plaster saints are always painted, so we don't need it. And I think "plaster saints", for most people, will evoke the right image, without needing to add "popular" or some other adjective. It really needs to be as brief as possible.
Peer comment(s):
agree Helen Shiner : Yes, something along these lines. Like Christopher, I've never heard of the term in all my years as an art historian, so including the explanation in this manner is the sensible way to go, in my view.
19 mins
Thanks, Helen! It was new to me too, I must confess.
agree Christopher Crockett : So, at least we can all agree that the term "[Saint] Sulpician" can't be used as a stand alone discriptor, and needs some sort of elaboration --preferably as brief as possible. That's Progress. Now, elaborate on the Progress, and we're Home Free.
20 hrs
Thanks, Christopher. The second part will doubtless be contentious, but we're getting there.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
+1
1 hr

sulpician religious statues

and i would add an explanation between brackets, somthing as
[from Sainte Sulpice - an mid19th century French academic religious art style]
Peer comment(s):
agree EirTranslations
3 hrs
Something went wrong...
13 hrs

figurine-style statues

In the end, in the end "Sulpician" means "like a religious figurine".

It doesn't seem possible to me to either use the actual term "Sulpician", because I don't think it means anything at all to most readers, even educated (even googling doesn't turn up much in English), or to somehow gloss or unpack the term in the translation.

The term is just being used to mean a certain slightly chocolate-boxy style - as the Luzel description on Wiki says, the saints are portrayed as rosy-cheeked pretty boys with boots and sashes. To try to give an explanatory 'etymological' translation that would bring a late nineteenth-century term for religious merchandise sold in Paris into a Breton chapel of large 18th century statues is just opening up a confusing semantic can of worms, even apart from the physical difficulty of working it into the sentence.

I think we just need a word that conveys the style. "Naive" would be good, but not appropriate given its attachment to a number of different aesthetic style. I believe "figurine-style" both evokes the right aesthetic and is also respectful of the actual original term.




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Note added at 13 hrs (2015-05-05 00:41:54 GMT)
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Delete first "in the end" in the beginning!

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Note added at 15 hrs (2015-05-05 02:09:28 GMT)
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Another reason to keep the whole kitsch/commercial idea out, impossible if you spell out the Saint Sulpice reference, is that these sculptures are quite spiritually important, as the focus of a unique interfaith annual pilgrimage, so it's important to avoid any suggestion they are cheap and nasty and keep the aesthetic implication of "sulpicien" light.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Helen Shiner : Figurine is not a style. Either say they are figurines, though I would not use the term as a sculpture historian, or not./Whether it is an art-historical text is irrelevant. It doesn't stop your formulation being meaningless.
9 hrs
On the contrary, I think "figurine-style" communicates something to a general reader about what is meant even if it is not a recognised style for an art historian.
neutral Christopher Crockett : I have to agree with Helen and there's more to a "Suplician" figure than just a "figurine" (which, after all, only means a "little figure). You're right that the anacronism (as Charles correctly noted it) is a central problem--of the *text* as we have it.
16 hrs
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7 hrs

popular religious statuary sold around the church of Saint Sulpice

Or 'mass-produced religious statuary sold in shops/the streets around the church of Saint Sulpice'

Or some variant

'Statuary' includes more than just figures, such as figural groups or things akin to 'tableaux'. You could go with 'figures' instead if you feel it fits your context better. 'Mass-produced' if that is important or 'popular' to signify the intended market. The sculpture is presumably not sold in the church, which Sulpician might suggest. It also suggests a grand school of sculpture if used as an adjective, which is also not the case here. My feeling is that the sentence needs to be unpacked a little in English - saves on footnotes and explanations in brackets.

See paragraph on 'The sanctification of the Christian home and family' for further ideas:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_5HzQugnWjcC&pg=PA113&lp...


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Note added at 23 hrs (2015-05-05 10:39:03 GMT)
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Please see also my discussion box entries.

This figural sculpture is likely to have been based on larger scale sculpture in the church. Originally mass-produced as reproductions in workshops around the church, it was probably sold in shops or direct from the workshops in the locality. The same will have applied, say, to statuary on sale at Lourdes, and many other such destinations.

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Note added at 1 day27 mins (2015-05-05 11:19:17 GMT)
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Or, just to be extremely clear, 'popular religious statuary produced in the workshops/sold in the Saint-Sulpice quarter of Paris.'

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Note added at 1 day1 hr (2015-05-05 11:59:19 GMT)
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http://www.universalis.fr/encyclopedie/art-saint-sulpice/
Peer comment(s):
agree philgoddard : This is nice and clear - it does all the work for the reader so that no further explanation is needed.
1 hr
Thanks, Phil
neutral Christopher Crockett : All well and good, but Rebecca can't get too far "down in the weeds" of this anacronistically-used term.
22 hrs
Thanks, Christopher, but I don't understand your comment - maybe rather anacronistic in itself?
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23 hrs

statues [...] in the popular, somewhat naive "Saint-Sulpician" style

Here's my suggestion of how the source text could be translated:

"bringing Muslims and Christans together in a common pilgrimage to the dolmen crypt of a chapel that is home to damaged statues of the [Seven Sleepers of Ephesus] done in the popular and somewhat naive "Saint-Sulpician" style."

It's a little wordy still, but my idea is that it would be good to include BOTH the term "Saint-Sulpician style" AND some additional words to explain what it means. The idea is to describe the style a bit more fully rather than the statues themselves.

[I found several variants on the first names of the "Seven Sleepers of Ephesus"; that is why I named them as a group rather than individually.]

Other terms could be used in addition to "naive" - "crude," "artless" or perhaps "sentimental" The idea is to distinguish between this style and "fine art."

I do believe that there is something at least slightly pejorative in the term; Bloy apparently used "style sulpicien" to describe "bondieuseries":

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Style_sulpicien
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bondieuserie
http://www.cnrtl.fr/lexicographie/bondieuseries

I have not been able to find any information regarding what the statues are made of or where they were made, so I think it makes more sense to explain the style at bit.

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Note added at 23 hrs (2015-05-05 10:33:30 GMT)
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@Helen:
I agree that "naive" could be difficult, as I noted in the discussion box. It really is a matter of finding the best nuance. Perhaps "somewhat crude" would be better. (In fact, I put that initially, but then I thought it might be too negative....)

However, I do think my main point here - i.e., using the term "Saint-Sulpician style" and then briefly explaining what that style is - holds.

And, I do think the term means "not fine art" - something which may or may not be pejorative, depending on one's perspective.

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Note added at 2 days53 mins (2015-05-06 11:45:12 GMT)
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@Rebecca:

I'd go with the following:
"...damaged statues of [...] done in the popular and rather crude "Saint-Sulpician" style."

In other words, the adjectives I suggest are "popular" and "rather crude", in addition to "'Saint-Sulpician' style."

In that way, the reader can see that this "Saint-Sulpician" style is not "fine art" and not "made with finesse." I think that works without being too pejorative or too wordy.

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Note added at 3 days3 hrs (2015-05-07 13:55:20 GMT)
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I was going to put this in the Reference area because I didn't realize that references can't be provided once one has posted an answer.

What follows is not completely relevant to the context here, because it involves the use of a note and because "Sulpician" is being used in a more metaphorical way. However, since the term is such so uncommon in English, I thought it could be interesting to include it. Who knows who may stumble across this discussion at some point in the future....

I have run across the term "Sulpician" in one of Lacan's texts, "La métaphore du sujet" (Écrits, 1966, Seuil, pp. 889-892). Lacan writes:
"[...] le discours de la science, en tant qu’il se recommanderait de l’objectivité, de la neutralité, de la grisaille, voire du genre sulpicien, est tout aussi, malhonnête, aussi noir d’intentions que n’importe quelle autre rhétorique." (p. 892)

Here is how this passage was translated by Fink (Écrits: The First Complete Edition in English, Norton, 2006):
"[...] the discourse of science, insofar as it commends itself by its objectivity, neutrality, and dreariness, even of the Sulpician variety, is just as dishonest and ill-intentioned as any other rhetoric." (p. 758)

Fink also provides the following note to explain "Sulpician" (and the fact that he could add a note makes it all bit easier!):
"Sulpicien (Sulpician) qualifies the company of the priests of Saint Sulpice as well as the conventional, drab religious art sold in the Saint Sulpice quarter in Paris." (p. 849)

I take it that Fink's focus on the "drab" aspect has to do with Lacan's having just used "de la grisaille," translated as "dreariness." The idea being that "science," as a form of discourse, is not as neutral, dull, non-controversial or concordant with common wisdom and conventional piety as it is sometimes thought to be.

In any case, this example provides two more possible adjectives to describe the style: "conventional" and "drab."
Note from asker:
Thanks, I think I might take your earlier suggestion of sentimental as that can have both a negative and neutral meaning like sulpicienne. I might use unrefined too to highlight that it is not fine art. I have seen "statues sulpiciennes" on several church websites, so "rather crude" seems a little too strong for this context (which I think is similar to mine), although I agree in other contexts this expressive meaning would be vital to bring out.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Helen Shiner : I would avoid 'naive' since it has a particular meaning style-wise that is not appropriate here. I dont' think there is anything pejorative here, even if, in other contexts, people have used the term in that way./Popular is enough in my view.
13 mins
Thank you, Helen. Please see my comments above. / Yes, I can see what you mean about "popular," but I worry that some nuance of the text is lost. The author could have chosen something other than "sulpicien" to describe these works....
agree Christopher Crockett : Definitely "sulpicien" should be either avoided entirely (since it is largely unknown to Anglophones) or, if used, carefully explained. My vote is to avoid the term, keeping only the description of it.
1 day 3 hrs
Thanks, Christopher. My opinion is that it would be fine to challenge readers a bit with this term, since it is not completely unknown,provided that some explanatory adjectives to define it (as a style) are included as well.
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Reference comments

1 hr
Reference:

Sulpician

Here as a noun : http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sulpician

Definition of SULPICIAN

: a member of the Society of Priests of St. Sulpice founded by Jean Jacques Olier in Paris, France, in 1642 and dedicated to the teaching of seminarians
Origin of SULPICIAN

French sulpicien, from Compagnie de Saint-Sulpice Society of St. Sulpice
First Known Use: 1786


Wikipedia entry : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Saint-Sulpice




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Note added at 2 hrs (2015-05-04 13:34:13 GMT)
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Further information on the art form, indicating that it can refer to both the kitch and the less kitch :

http://www.universalis.fr/encyclopedie/art-saint-sulpice/

L'expression « art Saint-Sulpice » est trompeuse, parce qu'elle englobe dans une même appellation et dans un même discrédit des périodes et des artistes très différents, parce qu'elle confond art de reproduction et de grande diffusion avec les recherches d'un art sacré authentique qui sont continues depuis près de deux siècles.

Au sens propre, l'art sulpicien désigne les objets que l'on vend dans les boutiques spécialisées qui avoisinent l'église du même nom à Paris : art industriel et économique, de médiocre qualité, où la mièvrerie et l'affadissement du style rassurent et portent en quelque sorte le cachet d'un art officiel, orthodoxe et sans excès. Ainsi compris, l'art sulpicien est de tous les temps et chaque effort de renouvellement de l'art religieux sécrète, naturellement, sa contrefaçon. Les vierges et saintes, à l'œil blanc et à l'air pâmé, issues d'Ary Scheffer et de son raphaélisme, les statues de la Vierge de Lourdes, mauvaise traduction du modèle médiocre du pieux sculpteur Cabuchet, les effigies trop sensibles de Thérèse de Lisieux ou de saint Antoine de Padoue, même les œuvres néo-byzantines, pâle reflet de l'expérience menée à Beuron, autant, en somme, de manifestations successives de 1850 à 1920 de l'art dit sulpicien.

En fait, l'intérêt de l'art sulpicien n'est pas seulement sociologique ; il est aussi, comme en contretype, le révélateur de l'intérêt que n'a cessé de susciter, contre toute apparence, l'art religieux. Dans la période industrielle et matérialiste qui s'ouvre au XIXe siècle, le catholicisme, ...
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree John Holland : That's certainly a definition of the adjective, but I'm not sure it includes the specific meaning of Bloy's use of the term to describe a specific style of devotional art. / Yes, I agree that the adjective has both meanings, the 2nd being relevant here.
19 mins
According to the Universalis Encyclo. it can refer to both.
agree EirTranslations
3 hrs
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