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Auteur du fil: Nicolas Gambardella

Nicolas Gambardella
Royaume-Uni
Local time: 01:40
Membre (2019)
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May 23, 2019

Hello,

I wanted to add an entry about Cafetran Espresso on the Wikipedia page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_computer-assisted_translation_tools

This resulted in a deletion war with someone who claimed the software lacked notability (I cannot even say the person was against Cafetran Espresso, because they have a
... See more
Hello,

I wanted to add an entry about Cafetran Espresso on the Wikipedia page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_computer-assisted_translation_tools

This resulted in a deletion war with someone who claimed the software lacked notability (I cannot even say the person was against Cafetran Espresso, because they have a gigantic history acting similarly since 2008). In any case, as a consequence, I create a Wikipedia page on the software:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cafetran_Espresso

It is pretty base at the moment. If anyone wants to complete it, e.g. adding history, etc. that would be very welcome.
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Nicolas Gambardella
Royaume-Uni
Local time: 01:40
Membre (2019)
anglais vers français
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AUTEUR DU FIL
Wikipedia war continues May 23, 2019

Hello,

I just noticed that the said individual now started to cause problems on the Wikipedia page I created. I think it would really be beneficial if other people added information there.


 

Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Pays-Bas
Local time: 02:40
Membre (2006)
anglais vers afrikaans
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The solution May 23, 2019

Nicolas Gambardella Le Novere wrote:
In any case, I create a Wikipedia page on the software:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cafetran_Espresso
It is pretty base at the moment...


Making a new page public while it is still quite basic will sometimes cause it to be flagged and removed. What you should do (and should have done) is to write a sizeable article to a good state of completion before publishing it. Even if you have the intention to improve the article yourself in the very near future, you're asking for trouble if you create and publish a tiny article.

As it happens, the article wasn't deleted -- it was simply moved to a draft folder, which is quite understandable, since the article is still just a very short draft. You can find it here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Cafetran_Espresso

You're also going to have to think how you can prove notability. Some Wikipedia senior editors can be very particular and unwilling to consider something notable unless you pour on the evidence (and even then, it may be touch and go).

* I suppose the fact that ProZ.com (the largest translation portal in the world) includes it as an enticement in their Plus package is worth a mention.
* Or, do any other CAT tools offer the ability to import and export files that are specific to CafeTran, or mention CafeTran in their user manuals?
* How many translators mention CafeTran on their profile pages at ProZ.com and Translator's Cafe (on TC it's about 110 worldwide, on ProZ.com it's about 10 in the USA alone... ouch, no, let's not use that as an argument of notability...).

Anyway, you/the CafeTran crowd have some homework: write a good article (not a simple draft). You're going to need non-primary references (e.g. mentions of the software by people who are not involved in it), a history section, a brief description, fewer dry lists (e.g. lists of formats that it can translate), etc.

* Was CafeTran ever mentioned in the magazines of translation associations?
* Can you find presentations from translator conferences where CafeTran was mentioned (not in a presentation about CafeTran itself)?

[Edited at 2019-05-23 20:11 GMT]


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Jean Dimitriadis  Identity Verified
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Wikipedia article May 23, 2019

Hello Nicolas,

This is a good initiative, but at its current state, I think the Wikipedia article may have been rightfully unpublished and set as a draft.

I am not a Wikipedia contributor and don’t know its publication requirements, but I guess these should definitely be considered.

For example, it appears that “self-published media, or user-generated sources, such as books, patents, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, personal or group blogs (a
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Hello Nicolas,

This is a good initiative, but at its current state, I think the Wikipedia article may have been rightfully unpublished and set as a draft.

I am not a Wikipedia contributor and don’t know its publication requirements, but I guess these should definitely be considered.

For example, it appears that “self-published media, or user-generated sources, such as books, patents, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, personal or group blogs (as distinguished from newsblogs, above), content farms, Internet forum postings, and social media postings, are largely not acceptable as sources.”- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published_sources

This probably makes my GitHub pages (which fall under user-generated content/wiki, since I’m not in any way affiliated with CafeTran and its development) not acceptable as a source.

Likewise, I don’t know exactly what the “notability” requirements are (there is a complex article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability). CafeTran Espresso is not a household name, but if Swordfish, MetaTexis, Matecat and Smartcat have a Wikipedia page, I don’t see why CafeTran Espresso can’t have its own listing, although I can’t point to (m)any sources that can give any idea of its notability or notoriety from an outsider's point of view. Not everybody is a translator, and I’m sure few non-translators have even heard of SDL Trados. CAT tools are specialized software.

---

I think the article content should definitely be completed, but I currently have no interest in doing so. Helping out in the forums when I can and curating TheCafeTranFiles is enough for me.

Regarding the listed supported file formats, I think the developer should create a Solutions (the official knowledge base) article listing these.

In the GitHub page you link, I clearly state the following disclaimer: The external projects compatibility list does not reflect an official statement., which makes my listing unfit for use as an official reference.

Anyway, I would prefer it if there was a direct source to use and the file formats were confirmed with the developer.

By the way, I’ve spotted a mistake: Déjà Vu is mentioned in the CafeTran Espresso draft article (Déjà Vu can process many file formats).

Jean

Edited to add: A ProZ Find search without any country or language restrictions, only setting the CAT tool to "CafeTran Espresso" produces: "2,223 results (595 members | 1,628 non-members)".

[Edited at 2019-05-23 20:18 GMT]
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Nicolas Gambardella
Royaume-Uni
Local time: 01:40
Membre (2019)
anglais vers français
+ ...
AUTEUR DU FIL
Everyone can edit Wikipedia May 23, 2019

Thanks all for your advice. They are all good. But rather than writing long e-mails here, they should have been put in the Wikipedia page.

It is not true that pages need to be large enough to be published on Wikipedia. I created loads of pages over the years, some that started with the same amount of information, or even less. There are even projects that automatically create thousands of pages, to be completed later on. Those pages are called stubs.

This specific cas
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Thanks all for your advice. They are all good. But rather than writing long e-mails here, they should have been put in the Wikipedia page.

It is not true that pages need to be large enough to be published on Wikipedia. I created loads of pages over the years, some that started with the same amount of information, or even less. There are even projects that automatically create thousands of pages, to be completed later on. Those pages are called stubs.

This specific case is just a personal war. I am not certain why it was triggered, but the person behind it is now coming for other pages I created in the past, even for resources that are worldwide infrastructures (I am talking core infrastructures backed up by governments, where notability is not even questionable).

I love Cafetran Espresso, and I thought it was a pity it was never listed by agencies as a proper CAT tool, even when they list several dozens of options. When I realized it was not listed on the Wikipedia CAT tool comparison page, I wanted to fix that. I did whatever I could. I think at that point everything I can do would damage the effort. So I hope someone will pick it up at some point.

Best regards

[Edited at 2019-05-23 20:49 GMT]
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Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Pays-Bas
Local time: 02:40
Membre (2006)
anglais vers afrikaans
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Title of my reply May 24, 2019

Jean Dimitriadis wrote:
For example, it appears that “self-published media... are largely not acceptable as sources.”


That is generally true, but for products or software it is considered acceptable to cite the product's own web site for objective kind of information.

Likewise, I don’t know exactly what the “notability” requirements are... but if Swordfish, MetaTexis, Matecat and Smartcat have a Wikipedia page, I don’t see why CafeTran Espresso can’t have its own listing...


Yes, notability is a hit and miss. Sometimes you have to be lucky enough to "miss" a senior editor who thinks your product isn't notable. (-: Also, yes, "notable" doesn't necessarily mean famous among the general population.

As for Wikipedia pages with lists of products and their features, these pages are often allowed to contain only products that have a Wikipedia page itself, unless the product is otherwise "notable". This may explain why the listing was removed from that page.

I think the article content should definitely be completed, but I currently have no interest in doing so.


Well, anyone can add to the draft page, and when adding information to the draft page, you don't have to follow Wiki style writing rules (the person who finally undrafts the article, is responsible for cleaning it up nicely). So if you have any interesting information about CafeTran and/or its history, just put it up there. Even if you have no reference for it, put it there and let someone else figure out a citation for it.

Edited to add: A ProZ Find search without any country or language restrictions, only setting the CAT tool to "CafeTran Espresso" produces: "2,223 results (595 members | 1,628 non-members)".


Aah, I used the "directory search". I see that ProZ Find allows one to search without indicating location or language combination. Still, this search yields "578,890 results (17,023 members | 561,867 non-members)", which is clearly rubbish.

Nicolas Gambardella Le Novere wrote:
It is not true that pages need to be large enough to be published on Wikipedia. ... Those pages are called stubs. ... This specific case is just a personal war.


You have my sympathy.

Unfortunately, some senior editors are against creating stubs (it was more acceptable in the beginning of Wikipedia), particularly if the stub is created by one person and not a group that obviously discusses the stub in the Talk page or if the stub isn't part of a larger push to create articles of a certain topic that was discussed by several people somewhere.

But yes, sometimes you just happen to be unlucky enough to appear on the radar of some senior editor who believes (for whatever logical or illogical reason) that you're up to no good. When this happens, there's little you can do about it. There is no way to stop editor abuse on Wikipedia. If you find that a certain senior editor targets all of your edits (you are on their watch list), then there is nothing you can do. Been there, done that.

[Edited at 2019-05-24 08:15 GMT]


 

Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Pays-Bas
Local time: 02:40
Membre (2006)
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Call for contributions May 24, 2019

Nicolas Gambardella Le Novere wrote:
In any case, as a consequence, I create a Wikipedia page on the software:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cafetran_Espresso


The article is currently in the draft incubator (i.e. it's not public yet), but you can see it here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Cafetran_Espresso
and have a look at the Talk page here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_talk:Cafetran_Espresso

What is needed now is to add some of your favourite features (preferably with a URL to where it is mentioned in the CafeTran KB or, better still, someone else's web site). Also, if you know that CafeTran was mentioned in a book or newspaper, add the information to the Talk page. Also, if you know of presentations that were given that mentioned CafeTran, that would be great.


 

Michael Beijer  Identity Verified
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Local time: 01:40
Membre (2009)
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on and on it goes... May 25

see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk#16:31:10,_25_May_2020_review_of_submission_by_Michaelbeijer

wikipedia

[Edited at 2020-05-25 17:43 GMT]


 

Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
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@Michael May 25

Why did you resubmit the article for inclusion without making any edits since the previous rejection? If an article is rejected, and reasons are given for the rejection (and these reasons include requests for improvements), then the article isn't going to be magically accepted if you just wait a few weeks/months and then re-submit it as-is.

cafetran notable

I'm not suggesting that making edits would have increased the chances of success -- it is clear that the senior editors have taken a dislike in the topic -- but resubmitting without *any* improvements... i.e. without even making an attempt to make it appear as if you're trying to comply... was doomed to fail.


[Edited at 2020-05-25 17:59 GMT]


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Michael Beijer  Identity Verified
Royaume-Uni
Local time: 01:40
Membre (2009)
néerlandais vers anglais
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sorry, couldn't resist Jun 15

cafetran-wikipedia-article-rejection-nonsense

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_talk:Cafetran_Espresso


 

Tom in London
Royaume-Uni
Local time: 01:40
Membre (2008)
italien vers anglais
You could start smaller, by inserting it here Jun 16

"Comparison of computer-assisted translation tools"

Cafetran is not currently listed- although others are of which I've never heard. So much for "notability".....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_computer-assisted_translation_tools



It will be difficult for interlopers to interfere with anything entere
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"Comparison of computer-assisted translation tools"

Cafetran is not currently listed- although others are of which I've never heard. So much for "notability".....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_computer-assisted_translation_tools



It will be difficult for interlopers to interfere with anything entered on that page.




[Edited at 2020-06-16 07:25 GMT]
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Nicolas Gambardella
Royaume-Uni
Local time: 01:40
Membre (2019)
anglais vers français
+ ...
AUTEUR DU FIL
Already tried Jun 16

Hi Tom,

This is what started the whole story. I tried to add CTE to the page "Comparison of CAT tools". The modification was removed several times by someone who decided that only tools with their own WP page could be listed in order to assert notability. Then I created a page, that kept being rejected, with moving goal posts, until the whole thing became a joke really.


 

Tom in London
Royaume-Uni
Local time: 01:40
Membre (2008)
italien vers anglais
Contact Wikipedia Jun 16

Nicolas Gambardella wrote:

Hi Tom,

This is what started the whole story. I tried to add CTE to the page "Comparison of CAT tools". The modification was removed several times by someone who decided that only tools with their own WP page could be listed in order to assert notability. Then I created a page, that kept being rejected, with moving goal posts, until the whole thing became a joke really.


All I can suggest is: report this to Wikipedia. Clearly someone feels threatened by CafeTran. I wonder why?

[Edited at 2020-06-16 07:27 GMT]


 

Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Pays-Bas
Local time: 02:40
Membre (2006)
anglais vers afrikaans
+ ...
@Tom Jun 16

Tom in London wrote:
You could start smaller, by inserting it here:
"Comparison of computer-assisted translation tools"


Tools listed on "comparison" lists on Wikipedia must all have their own Wikipedia page before they can be added to the lists (there are some exceptions). Also, I'm sure all of the CafeTran groupies and affected pages are already on watch lists, so there's no way to fly under the radar.

If anyone else wants to try to add CafeTran to this page (and other pages that mention CAT tools), they are welcome to try.

Tom in London wrote:
All I can suggest is: report this to Wikipedia.


Do you happen to have the URL for that? (-:

Anyway, it is unlikely that senior editors will act against their own. What's more, the senior editors in this case were careful enough to stick to the letter of the rules and they did not obviously or visibly act in bad faith.

The CafeTran crowd have my sympathy, but bad things happen to all of us. Editing on Wikipedia isn't a simple affair, there is a lot of inconsistency in the application of the rules, and there is office politics involved, so it can be disheartening to make a good faith effort and then get swallowed up in the mills. The CafeTran article just landed on the wrong desk.


[Edited at 2020-06-16 07:40 GMT]


 

Tom in London
Royaume-Uni
Local time: 01:40
Membre (2008)
italien vers anglais
OIC Jun 16

Samuel Murray wrote:

Tom in London wrote:
You could start smaller, by inserting it here:
"Comparison of computer-assisted translation tools"


Tools listed on "comparison" lists on Wikipedia must all have their own Wikipedia page before they can be added to the lists (there are some exceptions). Also, I'm sure all of the CafeTran groupies and affected pages are already on watch lists, so there's no way to fly under the radar.

If anyone else wants to try to add CafeTran to this page (and other pages that mention CAT tools), they are welcome to try.


I see. But I'm curious as to why anyone would be so anxious to keep CafeTran off Wikipedia.


 
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