Feb 5, 2005 18:37
19 yrs ago
French term
Le lieu de retraicte est Ay, desquels oultre
French to English
Art/Literary
History
Reims
Ce sont en fait des aventuriers allemands, polonais, suédois, qui vont tenir la Champagne en coupe réglée pendant deux années, y laissant un horrible souvenir. Ils accumulent les crimes, pillages, sacrilèges, viols, ainsi que le relate un pamphlet du temps, intitulé La Champagne désolée par l'armée d'Erlach, dont la lecture est insoutenable. Oudard Coquault, bourgeois de Reims, écrit dans ses Mémoires qu'en mai 1649 "ceux de la montagne depuis Rilly jusqu'à Villers-Marmery tiennent les bois, et qu'en mai juin de la même année, du 12 du passé jusques au l0 juing, ung colonel allemand, nommé Binet, ravage la rivière de Marne. Le lieu de retraicte est Ay, desquels oultre les rançons particulières des habitans, qui deux, qui trois pistolles ou plus, ont exigé pour en sortir onze mil livres... Cette brigade tient tous les vilages des environs en crainte, et personne ne s'expose aux champz ou il est volé."
More from this history of Champagne.
More from this history of Champagne.
Proposed translations
(English)
Proposed translations
3 hrs
Selected
citizens retreated to Ay???
With bit of reading between the lines and added punctuation, I get the following:
Le lieu de retraicte est Ay, desquels [,] oultre les rançons particulières des habitans, [--] qui deux, qui trois pistolles ou plus,[--] [ils (l'armée) leur] ont exigé [,] pour en sortir [,] onze mil livres... Cette brigade tient tous les vilages des environs en crainte, et personne ne s'expose aux champz ou il est volé
This gives something like:
The place they (the people of the area) retreated (in)to was Ay, to escape from where, apart from/in addition to individual "ransoming" (i.e. extortion) of the inhabitants [by soldiers] -- some (of the soldiers) being armed with two pistols, some with three or more -- they had to pay the £11,000 (collectively?) demanded (by the soldiers/army) … This brigade/gang of brigands (?) held all the surrounding villages in the grip of fear, and no one ventured out into the fields, or he was robbed
NB: brigade, from Latin brigata = troupe, from briga = lutte [military unit]
brigand, from Latin brigante = qui va en troupe [brigand, ruffian]
So:
The people found refuge in Ay. However, to escape from there they had to pay the £11,000 demanded by the soldiers, in addition to individual extortion by brigands armed with two, three, sometimes more pistols ... This gang of brigands held all the surrounding villages in the grip of fear, and no one ventured out into the fields, for fear of being robbed
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Note added at 3 hrs 45 mins (2005-02-05 22:23:10 GMT)
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I think you\'ve realized by now, Mark, that Old French sentence structure - indeed, the logical thought processes of the time? - was not as reliable as it is expected to be these days, possibly/probably because anything written was intended necessarily for a select few who, chances are, already had a good picture of events. Exceptions being written versions of orally presented stories, but here too, the audience already knew the story as a rule, so non sequiturs went unnoticed. (possibly in 500 years times someone will say the same about our cinema - there\'s a (at least one) site on the Internet that points out bloopers in films, be it visible camera crew in crowd scenes, L/R inversions, continuity errors (non sequiturs) ... Plus ça change, plus ça reste la même chose ...)
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Note added at 7 hrs 12 mins (2005-02-06 01:50:24 GMT)
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WRONG WRONG WRONG
I stand corrected. Your reference to Spain has made me realize that the \"pistolles\" are not weapons but a unit of currency, the Spanish (originally) gold pistole (note spelling, with a final E; English spelling, not French).
pistole - A name formerly applied to certain foreign gold coins ...; spec. from 1600 applied to a Spanish gold coin worth 16s. 6d to 18s.
[SOED]
Worth 16 shillings and sixpence to 18 shillings (there being 20 shillings in an English pound).
For Larousse Lexis, \"1. Monnaie d\'or ancienne frappée d\'abord en Espagne. 2. Monnaie de compte exprimant une valeur fixe de 10 livres\"
Le lieu de retraicte est Ay, desquels [,] oultre les rançons particulières des habitans, [--] qui deux, qui trois pistolles ou plus,[--] [ils (l'armée) leur] ont exigé [,] pour en sortir [,] onze mil livres... Cette brigade tient tous les vilages des environs en crainte, et personne ne s'expose aux champz ou il est volé
This gives something like:
The place they (the people of the area) retreated (in)to was Ay, to escape from where, apart from/in addition to individual "ransoming" (i.e. extortion) of the inhabitants [by soldiers] -- some (of the soldiers) being armed with two pistols, some with three or more -- they had to pay the £11,000 (collectively?) demanded (by the soldiers/army) … This brigade/gang of brigands (?) held all the surrounding villages in the grip of fear, and no one ventured out into the fields, or he was robbed
NB: brigade, from Latin brigata = troupe, from briga = lutte [military unit]
brigand, from Latin brigante = qui va en troupe [brigand, ruffian]
So:
The people found refuge in Ay. However, to escape from there they had to pay the £11,000 demanded by the soldiers, in addition to individual extortion by brigands armed with two, three, sometimes more pistols ... This gang of brigands held all the surrounding villages in the grip of fear, and no one ventured out into the fields, for fear of being robbed
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs 45 mins (2005-02-05 22:23:10 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
I think you\'ve realized by now, Mark, that Old French sentence structure - indeed, the logical thought processes of the time? - was not as reliable as it is expected to be these days, possibly/probably because anything written was intended necessarily for a select few who, chances are, already had a good picture of events. Exceptions being written versions of orally presented stories, but here too, the audience already knew the story as a rule, so non sequiturs went unnoticed. (possibly in 500 years times someone will say the same about our cinema - there\'s a (at least one) site on the Internet that points out bloopers in films, be it visible camera crew in crowd scenes, L/R inversions, continuity errors (non sequiturs) ... Plus ça change, plus ça reste la même chose ...)
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs 12 mins (2005-02-06 01:50:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
WRONG WRONG WRONG
I stand corrected. Your reference to Spain has made me realize that the \"pistolles\" are not weapons but a unit of currency, the Spanish (originally) gold pistole (note spelling, with a final E; English spelling, not French).
pistole - A name formerly applied to certain foreign gold coins ...; spec. from 1600 applied to a Spanish gold coin worth 16s. 6d to 18s.
[SOED]
Worth 16 shillings and sixpence to 18 shillings (there being 20 shillings in an English pound).
For Larousse Lexis, \"1. Monnaie d\'or ancienne frappée d\'abord en Espagne. 2. Monnaie de compte exprimant une valeur fixe de 10 livres\"
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks, pistols being units of currency makes it all make sense (although does not actually change the translation!) "
+3
14 mins
the army retreated to Ay, where, in addition to
the ransom of two or three pistols demanded from each inhabitant ...
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Note added at 16 mins (2005-02-05 18:53:39 GMT)
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it also demanded 11 thousand livres before it would leave
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Note added at 25 mins (2005-02-05 19:03:22 GMT)
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it might be better to turn it around a little:
the army retreated to Ay, where it demanded a ransom of 11 thousand livres to leave, in addition to two or three pistols per inhabitant
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Note added at 2 hrs 1 min (2005-02-05 20:39:22 GMT)
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the army withdrew to to Ay is perhaps better here....
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Note added at 2 hrs 1 min (2005-02-05 20:39:23 GMT)
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the army withdrew to to Ay is perhaps better here....
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Note added at 16 mins (2005-02-05 18:53:39 GMT)
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it also demanded 11 thousand livres before it would leave
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Note added at 25 mins (2005-02-05 19:03:22 GMT)
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it might be better to turn it around a little:
the army retreated to Ay, where it demanded a ransom of 11 thousand livres to leave, in addition to two or three pistols per inhabitant
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Note added at 2 hrs 1 min (2005-02-05 20:39:22 GMT)
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the army withdrew to to Ay is perhaps better here....
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Note added at 2 hrs 1 min (2005-02-05 20:39:23 GMT)
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the army withdrew to to Ay is perhaps better here....
Peer comment(s):
agree |
sarahl (X)
4 mins
|
thanks Sarah
|
|
agree |
Richard Benham
: How are you parsing "desquels"? I tend to think it's "from the inhabitants of which", but only because there's nothing else around to link it to.
42 mins
|
Yes, I believe it's 'from the inhabitants of which' too but it seemed a bit heavy like that.
|
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agree |
xuebai
3 hrs
|
thanks xuebai
|
+1
17 mins
their camp base is Ay, from where in addition to ...they ...
Ay est une ville de Champagne bien connue des cruciverbistes contemporains
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Note added at 3 hrs 40 mins (2005-02-05 22:17:40 GMT)
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*** la retraite ici c\'est comme la retraite d\'un animal, c\'est le leu de résidence, le camp de base pour des militaires. Le village de Ay est la base permanente des \"ennemis\" pillards de la région
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Note added at 3 hrs 40 mins (2005-02-05 22:17:40 GMT)
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*** la retraite ici c\'est comme la retraite d\'un animal, c\'est le leu de résidence, le camp de base pour des militaires. Le village de Ay est la base permanente des \"ennemis\" pillards de la région
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Hervé du Verle
: Je pense effectivement que la retraite est ici l'endroit où l'armée s'est "retirée, regroupée" pour y installer sa base et non à la suite d'une bataille. perhaps "retired"? http://www.britainexpress.com/History/battles/Fulford.htm
21 mins
|
16 hrs
a different take
This was my first reading. Now I've seen the other answers, I'm not sure it's right, but I can't see why it's wrong either, so here it is.
The army retreated to its stronghold at Ay *with inhabitants of the ravaved Marne area as hostages*. From Ay, they sent out ransom demands for the release of hostages (2 or 3 pistolles plus) and also the higher amount to leave Ay themselves. Possibly, vole in the final sentence would then mean taken hostage rather than robbed.
I don't have the right reference books here to check out which of us is right, but it should be possible to decide by looking at key vocab and at historical context - would ravaging the Marne be likely to include hostage taking etc?
The army retreated to its stronghold at Ay *with inhabitants of the ravaved Marne area as hostages*. From Ay, they sent out ransom demands for the release of hostages (2 or 3 pistolles plus) and also the higher amount to leave Ay themselves. Possibly, vole in the final sentence would then mean taken hostage rather than robbed.
I don't have the right reference books here to check out which of us is right, but it should be possible to decide by looking at key vocab and at historical context - would ravaging the Marne be likely to include hostage taking etc?
Discussion