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cabinet d'expertise foncière
avocat constitué près de
Jan 11, 2020 14:42
4 yrs ago
51 viewers *
French term

Madame X veuve Y

French to English Law/Patents Law (general)
From a will, listing the heirs.

The archives already contains an entry "veuve Y", but I don't think I've come across this formula before:

"Mrs X, widow of Mr Y", perhaps?

Incidentally, from the document, I can tell that X is in fact the maiden name of this person: it is not that she has remarried and taken on a third surname.

To me as a British person this makes me wonder whether this formula is actually drawing attention to the fact that this person is now deliberately making reference to her maiden name, or whether it is just part of the legal formula, akin to "Madame X épouse Y", which translates as "Mrs Y, nee X".

If this latter hypothesis is true, should this also then be "Mrs Y, nee X" or perhaps "Mrs Y (widowed), nee X"...

Or is she now "Mrs X", having reverted to her maiden name?

By the way, there is only one veuve mentioned in this document.
Proposed translations (English)
5 +2 Mrs. Y (widowed), née X
3 Mrs Y (widowed), formerly X

Discussion

B D Finch Jan 13, 2020:
Re "formerly" I agree with Eliza that "formerly" doesn't work, as it could be the surname of a previous husband.
The article on https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29804450 is well worth a read for some of the history of the surname issue.
Eliza Hall Jan 13, 2020:
@AllegroTrans The problem with "formerly" is that it doesn't convey the full meaning of the FR original. If you don't like "née" because there is some remote possibility that it might not literally be the name she was born with (i.e., if she was adopted after first being given the legal name of her birth mom or birth dad), then just say "Mrs. Y (widowed), maiden name X."
AllegroTrans Jan 13, 2020:
@ Eliza "In France a woman's legal name is always her maiden name, plus "épouse Y" (wife of Y, with Y being the surname of her current husband) or "veuve Y" (ditto, but for a widow)". All true, but by no means obvious to an English speaker, hence my "utterly safe" proposal to use the tag "formerly" which cannot ever be wrong.
Eliza Hall Jan 13, 2020:
Link re French law on surnames "En se mariant, une femme conserve son nom de famille.

Toutefois, le mariage permet à chaque époux (quel que soit son sexe) d'utiliser le nom de l'autre époux(se) ou le double-nom : il s'agit d'un nom d'usage....

Dans tous les cas, l'intéressé(e) conserve le nom inscrit sur son acte de naissance. Il restera toujours inscrit sur ses papiers."

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F77
Eliza Hall Jan 13, 2020:
@BD Finch You make an interesting point, but I don't think it's relevant here. In France a woman's legal name is always her maiden name, plus "épouse Y" (wife of Y, with Y being the surname of her current husband) or "veuve Y" (ditto, but for a widow). So there is not, legally speaking, any situation where a woman's legal name before marriage was some other married name rather than her birth name.

As for the potential of her having an adoptive name -- in other words, the somewhat remote possibility that she was adopted by another family after first being given the legal name of her birth mother or birth parents (as opposed to being adopted at birth) -- you can still use "née" in the EN translation because in EN "née" means maiden name.

IOW despite the FR meaning ("born"), in EN "née" does not mean the surname a baby girl was given at birth; it means the family name that a woman had in her family of origin, before she got married. For example, Blondie singer Debbie Harry was born as Angela Trimble and then adopted by the Harry family at the age of 3 months, but if she got married and changed her name, she would still be referred to as "Debbie Whatever, née Harry."
B D Finch Jan 13, 2020:
Problem with both "nom de naissance" and "née" There is a problem with both "nom de naissance" and "née" in cases where a woman's name before marriage was not the same as her birth name. This can happen, for instance, if a surname is changed following adoption, or by common usage or deed poll. In England and Wales one can change one's surname, but not one's forename, with no legal formality. So, women changing their surname on marriage is a custom, rather than legally necessary and it is a custom that more and more women (between 1/4 and 1/3 https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29804450) are not observing. I did not use my former husband's surname, when living in England, while still married to him. I was very annoyed that the Family Division court insisted on using his surname for me, but no other government department queried the surname that I wished to use.

Note that the situation is different in Scotland, where women have never had to change their surnames on marriage
because the Normans did not conquer them, and so women were not legally considered their husband's property.
Eliza Hall Jan 13, 2020:
X widow of Y, or née X... The phrase Mpoma is translating exists because in France, women's legal names do not change upon marriage. Miss A may become Mrs. B after marriage, but that is a social change, not a legal one. Your social name may appear on, say, your checkbook, but not in legal documents.

In legal documents, married women are referred to as "Madame A, épouse B." If JFK and Jackie Kennedy (née Bouvier) had lived in France, her legal name would've been "Madame Bouvier, épouse Kennedy."

When her husband, Mr. B, dies, she will be referred to in legal documents as "Madame A veuve B."

In EN-speaking countries we don't do this because women who change their names on marriage actually do change their LEGAL names. PhB's phrase ("Mrs. X, widow of Mr. Y" works perfectly well as a translation. It could be confusing, though, so I would prefer the alternative I've put below.
ph-b (X) Jan 13, 2020:
If the source text says Madame X veuve Y and makes it clear elsewhere that X is her maiden name and Y her late husband's name, can you not keep it like that in the translation? Would "Mrs X, the widow of the late Mr Y," sound unnatural in a will in English?
mchd Jan 12, 2020:
mais le testament précise : Madame (nom de naissance), veuve (nom de l'époux)
AllegroTrans Jan 12, 2020:
Mrs Y (widowed), née X Would only be correct if this lady had only married once. Even though you say you know this to be the case, I personally would (and do) apply a standard formula
Mpoma (asker) Jan 11, 2020:
Vous en êtes certain(e) ? Justement, en anglais la phrase est ironique, si l'on veut : ces prescriptions surgissent dans tous les domaines ! Mais j'ai l'impression que l'utilisation de la phrase et du concept est beaucoup plus répandue dans nos pays anglo-saxons. Quelle donc est la motivation du changement en question ? Car j'aurais imaginé qu'on aurait fini par trouver le terme "nom de jeune fille" un peu trop humiliant... ?
mchd Jan 11, 2020:
"Politiquement correct" est d'usage en français, mais comme le dit l'expression ... en politique seulement, et son emploi ne peut se justifier en droit !
Mpoma (asker) Jan 11, 2020:
nom de naissance Merci de cette information: je viens de chercher ici et à ma grande surprise, je ne trouve aucune traduction sur Kudoz pour "politically correct". Je trouve ce néologisme opportun, et j'espère que les notaires français commenceront à l'employer (je ne l'ai jamais vu dans un document juridique ou autre...).
mchd Jan 11, 2020:
Vous avez entièrement raison.
C'est très bien expliqué sur ce lien : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nom_de_jeune_fille
Au passage, j'ai commis une ereur : on ne dit plus "nom de jeune fille" mais "nom de naissance" !
Mpoma (asker) Jan 11, 2020:
thanks @Carol... why thank you!
@mchd... merci... donc dans sa vie de tous les jours, j'imagine que cette personne se présenterait "Mme Y" - qu'il n'y a aucune raison d'imaginer que suivant (ou avant) la mort de son mari elle aurait volontairement repris l'usage de son nom de jeune fille ...?
mchd Jan 11, 2020:
Expression courante en droit de la famille en France.
X = nom de jeune fille de cette dame
Y = nom de famille du mari décédé
Carol Gullidge Jan 11, 2020:
Sorry I can’t help you with this :( However, I’d like to express my appreciation of the clear and concise way you have gone about explaining your dilemma from every angle. I can quite see your point, and am only sorry that I’m unable to help on this occasion. I do hope someone else will soon provide the answer!

Proposed translations

+2
1 day 23 hrs
Selected

Mrs. Y (widowed), née X

See discussion: in France, women's legal names do not change upon marriage. Miss X may become Mrs. Y after marriage, but that is a social change, not a legal one. Your social name may appear on, say, your checkbook, but in legal documents, married women are referred to as "Madame X, épouse Y." If JFK and Jackie Kennedy (née Bouvier) had lived in France, her legal name would've been "Madame Bouvier, épouse Kennedy."

AllegroTrans' idea works, but is unclear because we don't know why she was "formerly X." Perhaps she legally changed her name to X before marrying Mr. Y; perhaps X was her former husband's name. Who knows? In the FR we know exactly why, but in AllegroTrans' proposal, we don't.

But we have a way to convey this in EN. We use the French "née" to indicate a married (or widowed) woman's maiden name. Using it in this translation just requires flipping the order of the names.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 23 hrs (2020-01-14 14:33:10 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

PS about French law on surnames:

"En se mariant, une femme conserve son nom de famille.

Toutefois, le mariage permet à chaque époux (quel que soit son sexe) d'utiliser le nom de l'autre époux(se) ou le double-nom : il s'agit d'un nom d'usage....

Dans tous les cas, l'intéressé(e) conserve le nom inscrit sur son acte de naissance. Il restera toujours inscrit sur ses papiers."

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F77
Peer comment(s):
neutral AllegroTrans : Simply using "veuve" does not expressly guarantee that "X" was this lady's maiden name. so this is not a safe assumption
1 hr
In France, it does. See discussion.
agree Yvonne Gallagher : agree with your reasoning and use of née
8 hrs
Thank you.
agree Conor McAuley : Absolutely agree.
23 hrs
Thank you.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
1 day 7 hrs

Mrs Y (widowed), formerly X

I would suggest this formula.

I don't think it's anything about drawing attention, but a standard formula

Using "née X" would be wrong as it is suggesting that X was her maiden name, which would not be the case if she married more than once. "X" is her name before marrying Mr. X

A song or poem about this would not be amiss.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 1 hr (2020-01-13 16:33:58 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Asker: I still maintain that the "catchall" phrase should be used, even though you do know that X was this lady's maiden name
Note from asker:
Thanks. As I say in my question, from the document it is absolutely certain that X is her maiden name / birth name. Otherwise, I agree with your point and this "catchall" phrase would be the one to use in other circumstances.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Eliza Hall : Works but unclear.
16 hrs
Simply using "veuve" does not expressly guarantee that "X" was this lady's maiden name, "X" was simply her name before she married Mr. Y. There is nothing "unclear" about this and it works every time.
Something went wrong...
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