Pages in topic:   [1 2 3] >
Are my assumptions about MT wrong? And an invitation to share a guess...
Thread poster: Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 05:19
SITE FOUNDER
Jun 26, 2020

Hi folks,

A question about the state of the industry. My views, which I did not think would be controversial, have been called into question, and I want to see if I have been wrong. Please confirm or correct the following points, which I thought would pretty much be commonly known:

- MT is helpful to translators in some cases (I'm talking about using MT within your CAT tool, this post is not about PEMT)
- Most translators are aware of this
- Many translators
... See more
Hi folks,

A question about the state of the industry. My views, which I did not think would be controversial, have been called into question, and I want to see if I have been wrong. Please confirm or correct the following points, which I thought would pretty much be commonly known:

- MT is helpful to translators in some cases (I'm talking about using MT within your CAT tool, this post is not about PEMT)
- Most translators are aware of this
- Many translators are successfully using MT, within their CAT tools, to boost their productivity
- Some translators have some sorts of work where MT is either not useful or should not be used. So there is still some work that does not benefit from MT.
- Some people just choose not to use MT, even when it might be useful. Call it a preference. There is no problem with this.

Am I wrong on any of these points?

Going beyond that into the "unknown" (for me), would anyone care to hazard a guess on this question?

What percentage of translators use MT, ever?

What percentage of translators refuse to use MT, even when it could be used to boost productivity?

I am not asking whether YOU do this, I am asking you to *guess* about the market overall. (It is just a guess.)

I am doing this in "inclusive" format. Thanks in advance to those with the courage to participate.
Collapse


WS McCallum
neilmac
 
Heike Holthaus
Heike Holthaus  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:19
Member (2012)
English to German
+ ...
Almost right Jun 26, 2020

- MT is helpful to translators in some cases (I'm talking about using MT within your CAT tool, this post is not about PEMT) > agree, e.g. boilerplate contract/technical text

- Most translators are aware of this > Most translators might be aware that MT could be helpful–whether they agree that it is, is another story.

- Many translators are successfully using MT, within their CAT tools, to boost their productivity > That may be true, just a guess though.

-
... See more
- MT is helpful to translators in some cases (I'm talking about using MT within your CAT tool, this post is not about PEMT) > agree, e.g. boilerplate contract/technical text

- Most translators are aware of this > Most translators might be aware that MT could be helpful–whether they agree that it is, is another story.

- Many translators are successfully using MT, within their CAT tools, to boost their productivity > That may be true, just a guess though.

- Some translators have some sorts of work where MT is either not useful or should not be used. So there is still some work that does not benefit from MT. > I think there are more than "some" translators that work in areas where MT is not useful or should not be used.

- Some people just choose not to use MT, even when it might be useful. Call it a preference. There is no problem with this. > I agree.
Collapse


Henry Dotterer
 
Kay-Viktor Stegemann
Kay-Viktor Stegemann
Germany
Local time: 10:19
English to German
In memoriam
I can only speak for myself, but Jun 26, 2020

The way I work, MT is more of an impediment than an advantage. But maybe the way I work is wrong. I use CAT with nearly every project, but MT with nearly none. In some cases where the client/agency provides the CAT, MT is activated and translations are prepopulated. The results are often mixed, so that I need to put additional effort into polish, correction, or entire rewrites. And this means that I have to create the correct translation in my mind anyway, and then to compare it with the ... See more
The way I work, MT is more of an impediment than an advantage. But maybe the way I work is wrong. I use CAT with nearly every project, but MT with nearly none. In some cases where the client/agency provides the CAT, MT is activated and translations are prepopulated. The results are often mixed, so that I need to put additional effort into polish, correction, or entire rewrites. And this means that I have to create the correct translation in my mind anyway, and then to compare it with the MT result. In most cases, dictating my own translation into the CAT is faster than polishing, correcting, or rewriting the MT result.

Even while MT results often look good on first sight, there are still a lot of typical problems working with MT. It can always happen that an MT translates "Never press the red button" to "Always press the red button" due to some glitch in the mined data. MT is next to useless with heavily tagged content, like my videogames; it will place the tags more or less randomly due to the different word order in my target language. And when I translate marketing content with all those typically American long-winded lists of sensational features, MT will translate every twist and turn of the original sentence and create a monster that will destroy sales for the next decade if the audience is ever allowed to read it.

For all these reasons, working without MT is faster than with MT. For me. I don't have statistics on translators in general, and I believe that there might be areas where it works better, but overall I believe that MT is not a useful tool for a professional translator.
Collapse


Thomas T. Frost
Vi Pukite
Ana Cuesta
Jan Kordac
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
WS McCallum
 
Dylan J Hartmann
Dylan J Hartmann  Identity Verified
Australia
Member (2014)
Thai to English
+ ...

MODERATOR
Clinical trial content Jun 26, 2020

MT is good just for a hint, if shown in the TM look up when there are no TM matches.

It is not useful when you allow it to prepopulate the empty segments, where you’re then forced to try edit it into something coherent.

Just for a hint for uncommon terminology or phrasing is good. Excellent for single word segments.


Edwin den Boer
Oleksandr Ivanov
 
Elena Feriani
Elena Feriani
Italy
Local time: 10:19
Member
French to Italian
+ ...
MT is getting better and better, I can't believe some colleagues refuse to give it a try Jun 26, 2020

Let's say you have a list of 500 ingredients to translate.
Why should you type garlic, onion or milk when MT can do it for you in seconds? Of course you'll have to go through it all again, but it will take you much less than typing every single word.
If the client allows it, I will use it all the time. If the output of a segment is simply wrong, it takes a second to delete it. It's no big deal.
I also use deepl.com when I can't think of a suitable synonym to avoid repetitions
... See more
Let's say you have a list of 500 ingredients to translate.
Why should you type garlic, onion or milk when MT can do it for you in seconds? Of course you'll have to go through it all again, but it will take you much less than typing every single word.
If the client allows it, I will use it all the time. If the output of a segment is simply wrong, it takes a second to delete it. It's no big deal.
I also use deepl.com when I can't think of a suitable synonym to avoid repetitions and right now I'm writing in Italian and deepl is translating for you! It's not bad at all!

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
Collapse


Henry Dotterer
Kevin Patrick Johnson
 
Anton Konashenok
Anton Konashenok  Identity Verified
Czech Republic
Local time: 10:19
French to English
+ ...
Limited usefulness Jun 26, 2020

In my experience, the usefulness of MT is limited to specific cases:
- MT may be helpful to beginners; for experienced translators (fast thinkers and fast typists), the time savings are minimal, if any, and may be outweighed by annoyance.
- The difference between MT in a CAT tool and PEMT is not very significant.
- MT may boost productivity, but it will not improve quality - it may actually impair it.
- MT may be useful for texts of general nature and style. For highly sp
... See more
In my experience, the usefulness of MT is limited to specific cases:
- MT may be helpful to beginners; for experienced translators (fast thinkers and fast typists), the time savings are minimal, if any, and may be outweighed by annoyance.
- The difference between MT in a CAT tool and PEMT is not very significant.
- MT may boost productivity, but it will not improve quality - it may actually impair it.
- MT may be useful for texts of general nature and style. For highly specialised texts, even MT specifically trained for the particular field tends to produce quite a bit of garbage, which is sometimes dangerous ("Always press the red button" above), and some of this dangerous garbage is bound to slip through unnoticed, especially because today's MT systems don't behave in a deterministic way: whatever has been translated correctly 10 times may be entirely wrong on the 11th.
- Translators are more likely to adopt MT when they are either unaware of potential pitfalls, or don't really understand quality. Here on ProZ, we have a few "MT evangelists" who obviously can't see the forest for the trees.
Collapse


Thomas T. Frost
Kaspars Melkis
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
The Misha
WS McCallum
Fatine Echenique
Ana Cuesta
 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 10:19
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
@Henry Jun 26, 2020

Henry Dotterer wrote:
1. MT is helpful to translators in some cases (I'm talking about using MT within your CAT tool, this post is not about PEMT)
2. Most translators are aware of this
3. Many translators are successfully using MT, within their CAT tools, to boost their productivity
4. Some translators have some sorts of work where MT is either not useful or should not be used. So there is still some work that does not benefit from MT.
5. Some people just choose not to use MT, even when it might be useful. Call it a preference. There is no problem with this.


1. Yes, 2. No, 3. No, "some", 4. Yes, 5. Yes.

Going beyond that into the "unknown" (for me), would anyone care to hazard a guess on this question?


Sorry... what question?

1. What percentage of translators use MT, ever?
2. What percentage of translators refuse to use MT, even when it could be used to boost productivity?


I'm guessing...
1. 1% of all translators, 10% of CAT users.
2. 99% of all translators, 80-90% of CAT users.

The problem with MT is that it is a completely different way of working. It may "boost" your productivity, but what effect does it have on your enjoyment? Some translators enjoy editing more, others enjoy creating from scratch more. I personally find it more enjoyable to use MT (I'm not talking about PEMT, which has additional constraints). But I suspect I'm in the minority -- most translators are attracted to this profession precisely because they enjoy being creative.

[Edited at 2020-06-26 17:02 GMT]


Elena Feriani
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
Stephanie Busch
Oleksandr Ivanov
Claire Bourneton-Gerlach
Stepan Konev
 
Sylvia Avila Cacho
Sylvia Avila Cacho  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 10:19
Spanish to English
+ ...
Yeah Jun 26, 2020

Samuel Murray wrote:

The problem with MT is that it is a completely different way of working. It may "boost" your productivity, but what effect does it have on your enjoyment? Some translators enjoy editing more, others enjoy creating from scratch more. I personally find it more enjoyable to use MT (I'm not talking about PEMT, which has additional constraints). But I suspect I'm in the minority -- most translators are attracted to this profession precisely because they enjoy being creative.

[Edited at 2020-06-26 17:02 GMT]


I enjoy being creative and don't use MT for everything, but I used it quite a bit for my last technical project. It wasn't exactly riveting content, fairly cut and dry sentences, and then most of my time went into terminology research and editing the output a bit to fix terminology and grammatical errors. I was surprised about just how good DeepL can be. And I also enjoy proofreading.

But now I'm working on radio shows, people talking naturally, and if definitely doesn't work as well. I do also find this project more enjoyable than the previous one since the subject matter is more interesting to me.


Edwin den Boer
 
Elena Feriani
Elena Feriani
Italy
Local time: 10:19
Member
French to Italian
+ ...
Minority Jun 26, 2020

Samuel Murray wrote:

I personally find it more enjoyable to use MT (I'm not talking about PEMT, which has additional constraints). But I suspect I'm in the minority -- most translators are attracted to this profession precisely because they enjoy being creative.

[Edited at 2020-06-26 17:02 GMT]


I honestly thought we were the majority!
Maybe it's 50/50. There must be data on this somewhere.
But now I see: some people enjoy the process, as you said, and are not interested in doing a different job.


 
Sadek_A
Sadek_A  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:19
English to Arabic
+ ...
MT... friend or foe? Jun 26, 2020

Maybe we should first confirm that:
A. MT wasn't built with the best interest of translators in mind.
B. For a diligent translator, MT doesn't boost productivity in the strictest sense, but simply reduces/minimizes - or, sometimes, eliminates - 1 of the 4 basic elements involved in the translation process: reading, thinking, researching and writing, with the latter being the one reduced/minimized or eliminated.

- Yes, "in some cases"; nevertheless, quality of both MT and
... See more
Maybe we should first confirm that:
A. MT wasn't built with the best interest of translators in mind.
B. For a diligent translator, MT doesn't boost productivity in the strictest sense, but simply reduces/minimizes - or, sometimes, eliminates - 1 of the 4 basic elements involved in the translation process: reading, thinking, researching and writing, with the latter being the one reduced/minimized or eliminated.

- Yes, "in some cases"; nevertheless, quality of both MT and CAT must be top notch for it to be true. This is, however, not the case so far, especially with all the hassle faced by translators and documented on this forum regarding CATs. Involved industry players are just so hasty in their attempts to eradicate human translators, without first perfecting their product.
- No, they are not, and they shouldn't be, as we have already established above that MT being useful is the exception not the rule.
- "Many" compared to what total number of translators? I think that many translators today have realized that CATs and MT are an added concern rather than a relief. Again, with this forum as an evidence on that.
- Definitely. And, if those said players are really serious about providing an all-coverage translation product, they will first need to hire, retain and well-remunerate real translation talents, so that their final product is built on a solid foundation laid down by those talents.
- As indicated above, MT only tackles 1 of 4 basic elements, and that tackled element isn't even the most time-consuming of all 4. So, yes, this could be a smart choice for some people.
Collapse


Mikhail Kropotov
Oleksandr Ivanov
Michael Wetzel
 
Kay-Viktor Stegemann
Kay-Viktor Stegemann
Germany
Local time: 10:19
English to German
In memoriam
Productivity Jun 26, 2020

I would like to add that productivity is very much an issue for me. I adopt productivity tools like CAT or dictation. I am not translating because I want to be creative (which happens sometimes anyway) or because I have this ubiquitous "passion for language" (I haven't). I am translating because I earn good money with it, and I earn more with it when I translate more words. If MT would boost my productivity, I would use it. But it doesn't.

Thomas T. Frost
Nadja Balogh
Edwin den Boer
Oleksandr Ivanov
Michael Wetzel
Dr. Stephan Pietzko
 
Jan Kordac
Jan Kordac  Identity Verified
Czech Republic
Local time: 10:19
Member (2004)
English to Czech
+ ...
mixed feeling Jun 26, 2020

MT can save a lot of typing effort (at least for me), but not so much time. Better option is in my opinion a feature of word suggestions, like in Memo - I have such vast TM that for nearly every word I just write two first letters and press enter. Sometimes it offer even longer expressions.
Also, there are several problems with MT:
- it translates correctly easy sentences that I can translate instantly as well,
- there is usually issue of inconsistency (neural brain of AI proba
... See more
MT can save a lot of typing effort (at least for me), but not so much time. Better option is in my opinion a feature of word suggestions, like in Memo - I have such vast TM that for nearly every word I just write two first letters and press enter. Sometimes it offer even longer expressions.
Also, there are several problems with MT:
- it translates correctly easy sentences that I can translate instantly as well,
- there is usually issue of inconsistency (neural brain of AI probably thinks it is natural)
- MT is doing more dangerous "critical mistranslations" (double negative in Czech is correct, for example)
- and last, but not least, it is completely unpredictable; some texts that I regard easy for MT are complete useless when pretranslated (and vice versa); it probably depends in large extent on the author's style and if he/she is native or not
Collapse


Stephanie Busch
 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 09:19
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Maybe I use it differently Jun 26, 2020

- MT is helpful: It's a resource. It may or may not be useful.
- Most translators are aware of this: If they aren't aware of the uses of MT, what else aren't they aware of? If they've tried and rejected it, OK.
- Many translators are successfully using MT ... to boost their productivity: It depends on what they translate. I did a monolingual English edit recently on a contract where I had access to the German source. Some of the MT output was definitely better ...
See more
- MT is helpful: It's a resource. It may or may not be useful.
- Most translators are aware of this: If they aren't aware of the uses of MT, what else aren't they aware of? If they've tried and rejected it, OK.
- Many translators are successfully using MT ... to boost their productivity: It depends on what they translate. I did a monolingual English edit recently on a contract where I had access to the German source. Some of the MT output was definitely better .
- Some translators have some sorts of work where MT is either not useful or should not be used: If the client forbids it, there's no argument. In my marketing texts there's often little advantage to using it, but it's still borderline useful. As are Linguee etc.
- Some people just choose not to use MT: As long as they know the difference between MT and TM/CAT tools. And they don't sneer at those who embrace technology. Modern-day Luddites can be a pain, IMO.

Henry Dotterer wrote:
What percentage of translators use MT, ever?

What percentage of translators refuse to use MT, even when it could be used to boost productivity?

I have no idea. Why doesn't ProZ.com publish a survey? I'd respond.

Most of what I hear about MT concerns whether it saves time or not, and whether it stilts your writing or not. IMO it's just ANO resource. I translate marketing copy, where every word has to have maximum impact. I find MT suggestions as valid as any others. I DO NOT expect to leave the MT sentence unchanged! I mostly just delete it and start again. But sometimes, I think "Oh yes, of course -- that word's perfect!"
Collapse


Philip Lees
Elena Feriani
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
 
Christopher Schröder
Christopher Schröder
United Kingdom
Member (2011)
Swedish to English
+ ...
Only useful for a machine translator Jun 26, 2020

MT might save time but it lowers quality. So you end up adding less value and making less money.

A good translator will know this.


Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Daryo
philgoddard
Ian Mansbridge
Michael Wetzel
Sandra & Kenneth Grossman
 
Lingua 5B
Lingua 5B  Identity Verified
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 10:19
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Not quite sure about it saving time. Jun 26, 2020

I tested this several times.

- If I’m translating from scratch, I am engaged in one mental activity.
- If I’m using MT as an assistance, I am engaged in two mental processes: correcting the MT mess AND figuring out new ways to word things. That’s a longer process! And very mentally consuming.
- I never use MT in my CAT tool, wanted to test it but the integration procedure seemed complicated so I gave it up. So I can’t quite comment on that.

The more
... See more
I tested this several times.

- If I’m translating from scratch, I am engaged in one mental activity.
- If I’m using MT as an assistance, I am engaged in two mental processes: correcting the MT mess AND figuring out new ways to word things. That’s a longer process! And very mentally consuming.
- I never use MT in my CAT tool, wanted to test it but the integration procedure seemed complicated so I gave it up. So I can’t quite comment on that.

The more the syntax expands, the more the MT gets confused. If it manages to produce accurate words, it will mess up phrases, sentences, or ultimately the overall flow. It may produce a good sentence here and there but that’s not enough.

It may save some typing time to save your wrists and knuckles but since it will require heavy editing you will be using your mouse more than normally, so that’s new problems for the wrist.

[Edited at 2020-06-26 22:15 GMT]
Collapse


Christopher Schröder
Kay-Viktor Stegemann
Thomas T. Frost
Mario Cerutti
Stephanie Busch
Aline Amorim
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
 
Pages in topic:   [1 2 3] >


To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator:


You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request »

Are my assumptions about MT wrong? And an invitation to share a guess...







Anycount & Translation Office 3000
Translation Office 3000

Translation Office 3000 is an advanced accounting tool for freelance translators and small agencies. TO3000 easily and seamlessly integrates with the business life of professional freelance translators.

More info »
Wordfast Pro
Translation Memory Software for Any Platform

Exclusive discount for ProZ.com users! Save over 13% when purchasing Wordfast Pro through ProZ.com. Wordfast is the world's #1 provider of platform-independent Translation Memory software. Consistently ranked the most user-friendly and highest value

Buy now! »