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Brainstorming: opinions on transferring ideology from source text to target text; CDA
Thread poster: adriana508
adriana508
adriana508
Bosnia and Herzegovina
May 11, 2020

Hello everybody! I am new in here, so I hope I am posting in the correct place.

I am exploring a lot on translation topics and I am working on a paper about some translation issues, so I am here to hear any kinds of opinions. This is like a discussion in which I would be glad to hear your experiences, books recommendations, thoughts, opinions, etc. Anything you say is welcome!

So, I've been thinking abou
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Hello everybody! I am new in here, so I hope I am posting in the correct place.

I am exploring a lot on translation topics and I am working on a paper about some translation issues, so I am here to hear any kinds of opinions. This is like a discussion in which I would be glad to hear your experiences, books recommendations, thoughts, opinions, etc. Anything you say is welcome!

So, I've been thinking about ideology (in Halliday's way of perceiving it - ideology as a point of view, not necessarily something bad or culturally and politically involved) in translation. For example, let's say you read a text in which there are some subtle Marxist views, however, the text is actually about some general values of society, and now you have to translate it to a Catholic community of young people. This is just an example, BTW, and it is not a real problem that I am facing

Now, should the translator adapt the text to its audience, since the point of the text is just to talk about some general social values, and the author might as well be even subconsciously including some Marxist views since they belong to that time frame/culture/society? Or should the translator be aware of the ideology and this specific discourse and translate it as the discourse it is?

Where is the border between translating and adapting?

One more question is how much should a literary translator be acquainted with literature critiques? You are translating a novel. Should you understand a complete context of that novel and how it is perceived in different societies and cultures?
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Sadek_A
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To be or not to be ... May 12, 2020

... a censor!

I guess the reason behind reading or watching other cultures is trying to borrow from them.

A translator, or the ones commissioning the translator, trying to control what people choose to borrow would actually render that borrowing unnecessary and unneeded in the first place.

Ideas must be translated honestly. Granted, some ideas might not be suitable for some people, and this is where free choice comes.

They can freely choose not
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... a censor!

I guess the reason behind reading or watching other cultures is trying to borrow from them.

A translator, or the ones commissioning the translator, trying to control what people choose to borrow would actually render that borrowing unnecessary and unneeded in the first place.

Ideas must be translated honestly. Granted, some ideas might not be suitable for some people, and this is where free choice comes.

They can freely choose not to read or watch what they don't like, in the same manner others can also freely choose to read or watch what they like.

A book with Marxist theory, however subtle, can contain a brief indication to that theory, either on the cover or in the introduction, consequently serving to keep away those who are not okay with it. Something similar to movie content rating system.

Lastly, it's not the job of a translator doing literary translation to be/become a novelist/critic, nor to try and anticipate how societies and cultures will think of it.

People pick and choose what to eat, drink, wear, etc., and in doing so they utilize free choice. By the same logic, they need to be enabled to pick and choose what to read, watch, and borrow from other cultures, without censors.
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Tom in London
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adriana508
adriana508
Bosnia and Herzegovina
TOPIC STARTER
Absolutely! But, what if... :) May 12, 2020

Of course, personally I agree completely with you.

However, let me put it this way.
Let's say you are translating a children's book. That children's book has some universal values and very compelling stories. However, the book is written by a person belonging to an African tribe and it uses a lot of elements which might not be understood by children of Germany (e.g. you are translating from the Mursi language to German). It uses some lexicology or even discourse which goes nat
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Of course, personally I agree completely with you.

However, let me put it this way.
Let's say you are translating a children's book. That children's book has some universal values and very compelling stories. However, the book is written by a person belonging to an African tribe and it uses a lot of elements which might not be understood by children of Germany (e.g. you are translating from the Mursi language to German). It uses some lexicology or even discourse which goes naturally with their tribe, but to children in Germany it would be so foreign they would not be able to understand the main message of the story. Do you adapt it a little bit and use rather German cultural elements or do you keep it as it is? Adaptations really do exist, don't they? However, the next question would be where is the border between translation and adaptation?
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Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
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Italian to English
No May 12, 2020

adriana508 wrote:

.... should the translator adapt the text to its audience....


No, never. The translator should faithfully translate what the original text says. The translator should never speculate on how readers might react to what has been translated. I'm surprised you're even asking the question.

Your second question is completely unrelated. I suggest you ask it in a separate thread.

[Edited at 2020-05-12 07:51 GMT]


Paul Malone
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Samuel Murray
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@Adriana May 12, 2020

adriana508 wrote:
For example, let's say you read a text in which there are some subtle Marxist views; however, the text is actually about some general values of society, and now you have to translate it to a Catholic community of young people.


It depends on the brief from your client, or to put it differently: it depends on why the translation is being made. Knowing where a translation is going to be used and why, will help you determine whose point of view should be represented in the translation. For example, the author's actual point of view, the author's intended point of view, the client's point of view, or (rarely) the reader's point of view. Having determined this will help you to decide if the text is well-written or poorly written (i.e. whether the author has accomplished what he had intended to set out to do), and whether you should translate it "better".

However, in general, translators should err on the side of the text itself. In most cases, if you suspect that the text is ill-suited for the intended use, you should inform the client and not just adapt it yourself while you translate it.

Being aware of different world views and cultural blindness is very useful for translators because it helps them to evaluate the quality of the source text more objectively, but generally (99.9% of the time) you should take these things into account in this specific sequence: 1. what is actually written, 2. what the author intended to say, 3. what the client wants the reader to learn, 4. what the reader wants or needs.

It is good for you to be aware of unintended cultural blindness in the source text, but in an ideal world the translator is supposed to play an objective, invisible role in the entire communication process. Ideally (unless something else gets agreed between you and the client), if the source text is bad, the client (or the author) should fix the source text before getting it translated.

Other rules may apply for non-business-to-business translation, of course, mostly because in such other cases the translator often plays a more active, non-objective part in the communication process.

...since the point of the text is just to talk about some general social values, and the author might as well be even subconsciously including some Marxist views since they belong to that time frame/culture/society?


I understand that this is just a [poor] example of yours, but let's talk about the example: be aware that you are assuming that marxism is not the normal view, and that there is some other view that is a normal or "neutral" view, and that by either just removing the marxist tones or replacing them with the other presumably neutral tones will do your audience a favour. (I understood your question to mean that you just want to remove the marxism from the text, and not that you want to introduce catholicism into the text.)

Where is the border between translating and adapting?


It changes with every new text you translate. Sorry.


Jan Truper
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Samuel Murray
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@Adriana II May 12, 2020

Tom in London wrote:
No, never. The translator should faithfully translate what the original text says. The translator should never speculate on how readers might react to what has been translated.


I hear what Tom is saying, but: I encounter this conundrum (of "wrong" source texts that must be turned into "right" translations) regularly when translating patient-facing clinical trial documentation.

The intended reader (as defined by the client, which in turn is defined in legislation) is "the average adult person with normal adult experiences and skills who had left school when he was 14 years old". And this is how the translator should translate it. This presupposes that this is also how the source text is written. In reality, the source texts are written by medical experts who haven't seen the sun in years. Still, the translation should adhere to the regulations, as if the source text also does.

Cultural blindness

I know your question is about world view, but cultural blindness is a similar issue. Take for example how UK and (to a slightly lesser extend) US English tends to soften requirements for the sake of politeness.

In clinical studies, I often get e.g. "at this visit, you will be asked to sign the form", which is a polite way of saying "barring exceptional circumstances, you are absolutely required to sign the form, otherwise you're out". If I was to translate this into my target language literally so, then it would communicate to the target reader that it is probably entirely optional to sign the form, and this is just a heads-up that the clinician will request it. I could translate this as "at this visit, you will have to sign the form", but then I have to convince the client (who reads the back-translation and believes that the translation is exceptionally rude) that I am right.

Or, I often get e.g. "you must avoid grapefruit when taking this medicine", which is a polite way of saying "you are absolutely required to refrain from consuming grapefruit in any shape or form when taking this medicine". If I was to translate this into my target language literally so, then it could communicate to the target reader that it is merely preferable not to consume grapefruit when taking the medicine (e.g. perhaps grapefruit will make the medicine take longer to work, or perhaps grapefruit along with the medicine might somewhat exacerbate some mild side-effects). In reality, it may result in the reader's death.

In these two cases there is nothing wrong with the source text. It communicates adequately and perfectly what the author is trying to communicate... for native-culture readers of the source language.


Jan Truper
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Jan Truper
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... May 12, 2020

adriana508 wrote:
… should the translator adapt the text to its audience …


I think this is a valid question.

Translation has the goal of making the audience understand the source text. To achieve this goal, it's necessary to consider what the audience is capable of understanding. You may have to adapt vocabulary, register or sociolect; you may even have to add clarifying content.

But of course, you should not censor.


Christopher Schröder
 
adriana508
adriana508
Bosnia and Herzegovina
TOPIC STARTER
Just for a clarification May 12, 2020

Dear all,

please do not assume that I personally believe that a translator should be a censor. I do not think that, and I do not ask this question because I have no idea how translation is done (I am a translator myself, and I am currently in my doctoral studies in linguistics). This question is solely for a debate and brainstorming. These are questions which do exist, whether we like it or not. Adaptations have existed for centuries. From the very Bible, Shakespeare, and what not,
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Dear all,

please do not assume that I personally believe that a translator should be a censor. I do not think that, and I do not ask this question because I have no idea how translation is done (I am a translator myself, and I am currently in my doctoral studies in linguistics). This question is solely for a debate and brainstorming. These are questions which do exist, whether we like it or not. Adaptations have existed for centuries. From the very Bible, Shakespeare, and what not, many books have been adapted (sometimes we may say successfully, sometimes not).

The point is, what other questions may come to your mind regarding this topic. I really appreciate any kind of opinion. What other problems may arise if we adapt the text? And is it not a translator also a person who may or may not (subconsciously) understand a text in one way and bring that style or nuance of meaning to their translation, even if it had not been there in the first place?

Thank you everyone who replied so far, I read it all and I am taking everything into consideration.
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Tom in London
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Recommended reading May 12, 2020

The great George Steiner, who only died in February of this year, left us one of the most valuable philosophical reflections on the task of the translator.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/After_Babel

It should never be too far away from the elbow of every translator. Ironically, perhaps, it has been translated into many la
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The great George Steiner, who only died in February of this year, left us one of the most valuable philosophical reflections on the task of the translator.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/After_Babel

It should never be too far away from the elbow of every translator. Ironically, perhaps, it has been translated into many languages, for example

https://tinyurl.com/y6umv6ej

[Edited at 2020-05-12 12:36 GMT]
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Sadek_A
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Equation is like this May 12, 2020

something interesting to borrow + free choice = selectivity



has some universal values and very compelling stories. uses a lot of elements which might not be understood by children of Germany


The fact that someone deemed such a book as interesting enough to borrow means it should be borrowed in its entirety, or else not be borrowed in its entirety as well.

Let's say someone decides to borrow the philosophy of Brahmans, how can any translator filter the "exotic" elements of such philosophy. You try to filter it, and it all falls apart. Then, maybe it shouldn't be borrowed at all.



Adaptations really do exist, don't they? However, the next question would be where is the border between translation and adaptation?


In translation? No.

A translator adapting is a translator "ghost-authoring" not "translating." That's the clear border.

And, it's absolutely not the translator's task to believe in, appreciate, or otherwise adapt what they're translating for it to be eventually liked and/or fathomed by others.


Tom in London
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Jan Truper
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English to German
... May 12, 2020

Sadek_A wrote:
A translator adapting is a translator "ghost-authoring" not "translating." That's the clear border.

And, it's absolutely not the translator's task to believe in, appreciate, or otherwise adapt what they're translating for it to be eventually liked and/or fathomed by others.


I've had clients who specifically asked me to adapt translations to German culture and understanding, both in entertainment formats and in marketing.
I've had other clients who did not directly ask me to adapt, but wanted me to make sure I avoid anything that might be deemed offensive in German culture.
And when translating advertisement copy, for example, it can be one of your main tasks to make the text as likable and fathomable as possible.
I do quite a bit of "ghost-authoring" -- I sell it under the label "transcreation".


 
adriana508
adriana508
Bosnia and Herzegovina
TOPIC STARTER
Very interesting! May 12, 2020

Thank you for sharing your experience. Can you tell me what happened in these cases? Do you personally believe that the original text was lost, or maybe some of its essential elements? How did you manage to find this border between "regular" straightforward translation and too much adaptation?


Jan Truper wrote:

Sadek_A wrote:
A translator adapting is a translator "ghost-authoring" not "translating." That's the clear border.

And, it's absolutely not the translator's task to believe in, appreciate, or otherwise adapt what they're translating for it to be eventually liked and/or fathomed by others.


I've had clients who specifically asked me to adapt translations to German culture and understanding, both in entertainment formats and in marketing.
I've had other clients who did not directly ask me to adapt, but wanted me to make sure I avoid anything that might be deemed offensive in German culture.
And when translating advertisement copy, for example, it can be one of your main tasks to make the text as likable and fathomable as possible.
I do quite a bit of "ghost-authoring" -- I sell it under the label "transcreation".


 
adriana508
adriana508
Bosnia and Herzegovina
TOPIC STARTER
Tell me more May 12, 2020

Jan Truper wrote:

You may have to adapt vocabulary, register or sociolect; you may even have to add clarifying content.


How do you determine when it is too much?

Also, do you have any examples of this register or sociolect adaptations?


 
Sadek_A
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Back to Brahmans' example May 12, 2020

Jan Truper wrote:

I've had clients who specifically asked me to adapt translations to German culture and understanding, both in entertainment formats and in marketing.
I've had other clients who did not directly ask me to adapt, but wanted me to make sure I avoid anything that might be deemed offensive in German culture.
And when translating advertisement copy, for example, it can be one of your main tasks to make the text as likable and fathomable as possible.
I do quite a bit of "ghost-authoring" -- I sell it under the label "transcreation".


I repeat my last example of the philosophy of Brahmans. Such philosophy, when presented geographically elsewhere, will contradict local faiths/religions.

A translator trying to reach a "middle-ground" between the philosophy and applicable local faith/religion, will fail. There is no middle-ground, there is no compromise.

Adaptation is (ghost-)authoring. And, it's different from creative writing, whether for marketing, advertising, or whatever. We shouldn't confuse terminology.

The concept of "adaptation" raised in this thread is changing original thoughts of original author into different ones, presented as if they were by the original author. Now, is the translator doing such adaptation the same level of thinker as that author, the same level of fluent with the source message being unraveled, the same level of believer in the target culture?

Lastly, removing "anything that might be deemed offensive in German culture" is, indeed, censorship.

If we have, say, a TV series with heavy adult content, why should we "borrow" it if we're going to censor it? People didn't ask to borrow it, they possibly didn't even know it existed; and, those who knew about it will surely be able to "borrow" it in its original form and native language.

The way I see it, such actions are simply calculated maneuvers to succeed in introducing (and, possibly, activating) other source cultures without target culture noticing it. You know, gradually and slowly.

I say introduce the work as a whole, those who wish to adopt it can do so, and those who don't wish to adopt it are free to keep away from it.


Tom in London
 
Sadek_A
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?? May 12, 2020

adriana508 wrote:

Thank you for sharing your experience. Can you tell me what happened in these cases? Do you personally believe that the original text was lost, or maybe some of its essential elements? How did you manage to find this border between "regular" straightforward translation and too much adaptation?


Not sure if your question is for me or for Jan Truper?

But, when I translated those books about Brahmans, I did it to the letter. Client never asked me to adapt content, and I never allowed myself to do so.

I must admit, during the task I silently questioned the purpose of translating such books, given the severe close-mindedness of society at the time, but the answer came to me as "selectivity." I figured there must be some audience, however little, for this kind of content.


 
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Brainstorming: opinions on transferring ideology from source text to target text; CDA







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