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A virtual cooperative?
Thread poster: Felipe Gútiez Velasco
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
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Sharing profits Sep 10, 2008

Felipe Gútiez wrote:
Profits: Don´t worry, accounting is online and every member/translator has access to it. Sharing of profits will be decided by voting, democratically
Running the cooperative: everybody runs it. Everybody profits from it.


Profits: But there must be some starting point clearly established from the beginning, so that everyone knows what it will be all about. For instance, let's assume that "democratically" 52% of the members decide that profits will be shared equally among all members... whereas 25% of people are doing most of the work (as usually happens in so many human organisations). That would be "democratic", but not fair.

As for "everybody runs it": Sorry Felipe, but history teaches us a good lesson: "If you want something done, do it yourself. If you don't want it done, create a group to do it". I don't believe in "everybody runs it". If you don't establish clear tasks and goals and more profits for those who work harder... nobody but a minority of commited people will take care of the work, without seeing extra money for it. Another unfair situation that is not sustainable.

So please Felipe, how do you see profits could be shared?


 
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
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Citizens of the world, slaves of the local tax authorities Sep 10, 2008

Felipe Gútiez wrote:
Jurisdiction: how about the Cayman islands? Or in a ship with Liberian flag? Monaco? Luxembourg? No idea. I don´t think it really matters... We are world citicens in a world.


Ok. Ask your Finanzamt their opinion about you being a "citizen of the world" and getting income from a company abroad. They will of course tax you for that income, won't they?


 
Felipe Gútiez Velasco
Felipe Gútiez Velasco
Germany
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Good point Tomás, any suggestion? Sep 10, 2008

Tomás Cano Binder wrote:

Felipe Gútiez wrote:
Jurisdiction: how about the Cayman islands? Or in a ship with Liberian flag? Monaco? Luxembourg? No idea. I don´t think it really matters... We are world citicens in a world.


Ok. Ask your Finanzamt their opinion about you being a "citizen of the world" and getting income from a company abroad. They will of course tax you for that income, won't they?


Where are ebay, amazon, microsoft, SAP, emule, second life, google, wikipedia paying taxes?
Some suggestion? Any world-tax expert out there?

[Editado a las 2008-09-10 09:53]


 
Jaroslaw Michalak
Jaroslaw Michalak  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 14:18
Member (2004)
English to Polish
SITE LOCALIZER
No nothing... Sep 10, 2008

No phone calls, no emails = no clients...

No project management = ditto

Besides,

there is a website where translators can provide his/her personal data and signing an agreement of partnership with access to accounting information.

somehow does not go too well with

And you need top translators for A translations.


How do you choose "top translators". And, what is more important, who chooses them? Their direct competitors? By "voting"?

What you describe is just a pipe dream. It would not survive its first contact with business reality.

That said, this does not mean that I think cooperatives cannot be successful... Maybe instead of describing totally unrealistic concepts, someone could describe his/her experience with a cooperative that actually works? I know that there are some...


 
Felipe Gútiez Velasco
Felipe Gútiez Velasco
Germany
Local time: 14:18
Member (2002)
German to Spanish
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TOPIC STARTER
I posted it the first, so I´ll take one cent more than everybody :-) Sep 10, 2008

Tomás Cano Binder wrote:

Felipe Gútiez wrote:
Profits: Don´t worry, accounting is online and every member/translator has access to it. Sharing of profits will be decided by voting, democratically
Running the cooperative: everybody runs it. Everybody profits from it.


Profits: But there must be some starting point clearly established from the beginning, so that everyone knows what it will be all about. For instance, let's assume that "democratically" 52% of the members decide that profits will be shared equally among all members... whereas 25% of people are doing most of the work (as usually happens in so many human organisations). That would be "democratic", but not fair.

As for "everybody runs it": Sorry Felipe, but history teaches us a good lesson: "If you want something done, do it yourself. If you don't want it done, create a group to do it". I don't believe in "everybody runs it". If you don't establish clear tasks and goals and more profits for those who work harder... nobody but a minority of commited people will take care of the work, without seeing extra money for it. Another unfair situation that is not sustainable.

So please Felipe, how do you see profits could be shared?


I really think we should be much more optimistic and trust the democratic control. In most cases people are not doof and voting very often makes people getting used to take the ritht decisions.
I think that until now the bigger problem to get people involved in decision-making in companies was just a technical one. With Internet it is possible to solve this problem.
The question is to have a very good "idea-to-reality" management system. That is the main point, I think.

[Editado a las 2008-09-10 09:54]


 
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
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Successful "cooperatives" Sep 10, 2008

Jabberwock wrote:
That said, this does not mean that I think cooperatives cannot be successful... Maybe instead of describing totally unrealistic concepts, someone could describe his/her experience with a cooperative that actually works? I know that there are some...


Yes, they work! And they are called "companies". Two or more people create a company, work together pursuing their common dream and share the profits. When the company grows, they hire people who can help them with the things they cannot or don't have the time to do. And when the internal team is not enough, they subcontract work. And they pay taxes locally, so they are good for the community in which they are incorporated.


 
Felipe Gútiez Velasco
Felipe Gútiez Velasco
Germany
Local time: 14:18
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TOPIC STARTER
Good point, I will be interested... Sep 10, 2008


That said, this does not mean that I think cooperatives cannot be successful... Maybe instead of describing totally unrealistic concepts, someone could describe his/her experience with a cooperative that actually works? I know that there are some...


This is a positive position.


 
Felipe Gútiez Velasco
Felipe Gútiez Velasco
Germany
Local time: 14:18
Member (2002)
German to Spanish
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TOPIC STARTER
Ebay, 2nd life, amazon no clients? Sep 10, 2008

Jabberwock wrote:

No phone calls, no emails = no clients...

No project management = ditto



Do you think most people like email and phone calling? I don´t think so.
It is a generation point of view (sorry, I don´t know your age).:-)


 
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
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Big companies also pay taxes Sep 10, 2008

Felipe Gútiez wrote:
Where are eby, amazon, microsoft, SAP, emule, second life, google, wikipedia paying taxes?
Some suggestion? Any world-tax expert out there?


You don't need a tax expert. Just visit the shareholder information of these companies' websites. The main companies (they pay taxes in numerous other countries too) pay taxes in:

- Ebay: California, USA
- Amazon: Seattle, USA
- Microsoft: Redmond, USA
- SAP: Waldorf, Germany
- Second Life (you meant to say Linden Research, Inc.): San Francisco, USA
- Google: California, USA
- Wikipedia (you mean Wikimedia Foundation): a non-profit, USA

I did not know emule was a company...

You are probably forgetting the fact that most corporations today have "good citizenship" policies. They would probably be hesitant to hire your "cooperative" unless you are paying taxes in the countries where you operate.


 
Felipe Gútiez Velasco
Felipe Gútiez Velasco
Germany
Local time: 14:18
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German to Spanish
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It is just another way... Sep 10, 2008

Tomás Cano Binder wrote:

Jabberwock wrote:
That said, this does not mean that I think cooperatives cannot be successful... Maybe instead of describing totally unrealistic concepts, someone could describe his/her experience with a cooperative that actually works? I know that there are some...


Yes, they work! And they are called "companies". Two or more people create a company, work together pursuing their common dream and share the profits. When the company grows, they hire people who can help them with the things they cannot or don't have the time to do. And when the internal team is not enough, they subcontract work. And they pay taxes locally, so they are good for the community in which they are incorporated.


A cooperative is just another way of doing things. I think a better one, because YOUR MONEY is in the business, so you are more interested in making things work.
Maybe I am wrong, I would like to know real experiences in different parts of the world.


 
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 14:18
Member (2005)
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Ebay, 2nd life, amazon are companies Sep 10, 2008

Felipe Gútiez wrote:
Ebay, 2nd life, amazon no clients?

Do you think most people like email and phone calling? I don´t think so.
It is a generation point of view (sorry, I don´t know your age).:-)


Felipe, please don't forget that these are companies, not cooperatives. They are not the "everybody runs it" kind...


 
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 14:18
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
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Create a company Sep 10, 2008

Felipe Gútiez wrote:
A cooperative is just another way of doing things. I think a better one, because YOUR MONEY is in the business, so you are more interested in making things work.
Maybe I am wrong, I would like to know real experiences in different parts of the world.


Well, let's use a very simple parameter: How many cooperatives in the world of language and business services exist today? That will give you a clear idea of whether it is a good idea. You are not the first person to have a business idea Felipe... Many people have thought about this very carefully in the past, and have created companies for several good reasons...


 
Felipe Gútiez Velasco
Felipe Gútiez Velasco
Germany
Local time: 14:18
Member (2002)
German to Spanish
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TOPIC STARTER
We had not fast Internet in the past... Sep 10, 2008

Tomás Cano Binder wrote:

Felipe Gútiez wrote:
A cooperative is just another way of doing things. I think a better one, because YOUR MONEY is in the business, so you are more interested in making things work.
Maybe I am wrong, I would like to know real experiences in different parts of the world.


Well, let's use a very simple parameter: How many cooperatives in the world of language and business services exist today? That will give you a clear idea of whether it is a good idea. You are not the first person to have a business idea Felipe... Many people have thought about this very carefully in the past, and have created companies for several good reasons...


32 MB/second . This can make the difference.
It is like the oil price. Before every alternative was too expensive. Now everything (including solar energy) is economically viable.
With a fast connection and a fast computer what before was just an ideal dream becomes feasable.
Furthermore you have a new generation of possible clients who don´t need emails nor phone calls. The got used to pay for services in the Internet (phone tones, videogames, pizzas, books, plane travel) with no mails, no phone calls. The easier you explain and offer your service the more you sell. And if your service is top (and that is allways the main point, to have top translators, who are most freelancers and don´t want to be hired by a "vulgar, just-money-making, simple, not up-to-my-standars, not may-way" company), in this case, they will queue for your services. But to be shareholder of your cooperative is something different.

Furthermore from a cooperative you get many more ideas than from a company. The "idea-to-reality" process can be made much faster.

IT IS DOABLE, I think (:-))









[Editado a las 2008-09-10 10:15]


 
Jaroslaw Michalak
Jaroslaw Michalak  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 14:18
Member (2004)
English to Polish
SITE LOCALIZER
Black hole? Sep 10, 2008

Felipe Gútiez wrote:
Do you think most people like email and phone calling? I don´t think so.
It is a generation point of view (sorry, I don´t know your age).:-)


How exactly do you imagine translating a document without any email or phone contact? Let's imagine I am a manufacturer of CNC equipment and I need some documents to be translated (manual for the machine, software strings for its software, some PDFs with CE certificates).

Let's assume that I stumbled upon the website by accident (there is no other way as there is no marketing, remember?). I cannot ask anyone about anything, as there is no phone number and no email address (and what is worse, no person responsible!). Even if I take the enormous leap of faith and decide to use the services, what am I going to do? Send the files and hope that they will come back translated?

[Edited at 2008-09-10 10:15]


 
Felipe Gútiez Velasco
Felipe Gútiez Velasco
Germany
Local time: 14:18
Member (2002)
German to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Black hole, je, je :-) Sep 10, 2008

Jabberwock wrote:

Felipe Gútiez wrote:
Do you think most people like email and phone calling? I don´t think so.
It is a generation point of view (sorry, I don´t know your age).:-)


How exactly do you imagine translating a document without any email or phone contact? Let's imagine I am a manufacturer of CNC equipment and I need some documents to be translated (manual for the machine, software strings for its software, some PDFs with CE certificates).

Let's assume that I stumbled upon the website by accident (there is no other way as there is no marketing, remember?). I cannot ask anyone about anything, as there is no phone number and no email address (and what is worse, no person responsible!). Even if I take the enormous leap of faith and decide to use the services, what am I going to do? Send the files and hope that they will come back translated?

[Edited at 2008-09-10 10:15]


Have you ever bought a plane travel ticket online? You did not know if the plane already existed. You even didn´t know the name of the pilot. You are really gullible, why have you pay with your credit card such service? It must work only with email and phone, of course.

The question is to force the client do things our way, that is how travel air companies did it.
You can post online the CV, phone number and photography of the translator and the revisor in charge of a project. And that automatically. It is possible. Everything is possible. Good idea, thank you Jabberwock.

I LOVE BRAINSTORMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 
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