| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Multidimensional Blue Board score Thread poster: ..... (X)
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| Your rationale | Sep 11, 2016 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Mirko Mainardi wrote:
... then there are those who go like "we offer X in your pair, take it or leave it", which is particularly annoying after you jumped through all their hoops (and even told them your rates from the beginning...). This is where beginners need to learn not to make mistakes twice. ... Yes, I know that some agencies do that. I know that some PMs use the excuse that their rate is "confidential information" and that they can only reveal it after you've signed their agreements, and I understand that these poor PMs often have no say in the matter because it is their agency's policy. But when that happens, and the agency does not have a very, very good reputation on e.g. the BB, then I simply stop communicating.
And that's what YOU do, OK. But the fact you act in a different way, or your idea that "beginners need to learn not to make mistakes twice" doesn't really sound like a valid and logic reason against including such accessory details to the BB...
And here I could ask you how you would avoid "making mistakes twice", when you're dealing with agencies that "do that" despite having a "very, very good reputation on the BB" (because believe me, there are...), but that's beside the point, because, unlike you, I merely think the BB should be a useful tool for translators, and that increasing that usefulness would definitely be a very good thing, and not that its scope must remain limited so that "beginners" learn the trade the hard way.
So, again, what's so wrong in hearing other translators' opinions about such matters? Whether or not the offered rate is within X percent of the community rate, or whether or not there is a free test, is not a matter of opinion.
Again, what's so wrong in knowing that "non-opinion"? You didn't answer my main question: "Why are you opposed to it? How would that damage you?" (or other translators, for that matter...)
Mirko Mainardi wrote:
Firstly, since this is a thread about possible changes to the BB, I think the "purpose of the BB" itself is up for debate... It did not even occur to me to think that the purpose of the BB itself was up to debate. This thread is about improving the BB, not changing is purpose.
I used quotes for a reason. You said yourself that including additional details to the BB would change its purpose to "helping lazy freelancers", thing I do not agree with. However, this thread is about including additional details to the BB score, therefore, it is about changing its purpose (by your own definition of it...  )
Actually, the BB is merely defined as a database of records about the likelihood of working again with outsourcers, and I don't know about you, but for me that likelihood includes several factors and details that would have a natural place in that database, making it more useful. In other words, it is "multidimensional", as per subject of this thread.
| | | | | what I'd like to see... | Sep 11, 2016 |
- level of rate agreed: high, medium, low (yes, this is subjective, but you can still get an idea, for example if 20 translators select "low"...)
- responsiveness
- helpfulness
- communication
- payment according to the terms agreed
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:56
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Norskpro wrote:
No need to complicate things. In addition to the Blue Board score, there is a comment field for any complaints one may have about the outsourcer.
Yes, but the comments are monitored. Negative remarks are not allowed and you can no longer - as you once could - give a low score with the simple comment "for more details contact me privately" (though of course you can still give a low score and say nothing, leaving it up to others to use their brains....).
I just don't see how adding all these sub-categories will improve things. The people who have always given a glowing 5 will continue to do so, and any outsourcer getting a low score in any category will raise all kinds of complaints about it. Mayhem will be the result.
If there is an intention to change the Blue Board, in my opinion a much deeper rethink is needed. These proposed changes just seem like tweaking.
[Edited at 2016-09-12 14:04 GMT]
| | | | | Keep it simple and non-anonymous | Sep 11, 2016 |
Personally, I am in favour of keeping BB a simple one-dimensional score, but with a longer character limit for comments (on a few occasions, I had to be really telegraphic to squeeze the useful info into the comment).
Regarding anonymity proposed by esteemed colleagues, the only problem it would resolve is one of retaliation by agencies. Excuse me, but if an agency is going as low as this, then concealing one's identity in fear of losing future jobs amounts to lack of respect for on... See more Personally, I am in favour of keeping BB a simple one-dimensional score, but with a longer character limit for comments (on a few occasions, I had to be really telegraphic to squeeze the useful info into the comment).
Regarding anonymity proposed by esteemed colleagues, the only problem it would resolve is one of retaliation by agencies. Excuse me, but if an agency is going as low as this, then concealing one's identity in fear of losing future jobs amounts to lack of respect for oneself as a professional. At the same time, anonymity will create a huge opportunity for abuse of BB through sockpuppeting. Furthermore, it's often helpful to know who gave a particular score - when I see a score given by someone I know to be highly professional, experienced and reasonable, it weighs a lot more to me than scores of scores (pardon the pun) by total beginners. ▲ Collapse
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| Rates shouldn't be the issue on the Blue Board | Sep 11, 2016 |
High/Low rates on the Blue Board merely tend to confirm that the client is empowered to set the rates.
For instance, I see some outsourcers from India/China/etc. who have tons of 5s... from translators who are visibly 'local'. The reason they don't get such inputs from higher-paying countries is that they are unable to hire these with their low rates.
IMHO the Blue Board should be OBJECTIVE, focusing on FACTS, which are easy to ascertain:
- Did they give clear ins... See more High/Low rates on the Blue Board merely tend to confirm that the client is empowered to set the rates.
For instance, I see some outsourcers from India/China/etc. who have tons of 5s... from translators who are visibly 'local'. The reason they don't get such inputs from higher-paying countries is that they are unable to hire these with their low rates.
IMHO the Blue Board should be OBJECTIVE, focusing on FACTS, which are easy to ascertain:
- Did they give clear instructions?
- Did they provide adequate support about the job?
- Did they pay as agreed (amount, method, time)?
None of these questions can be answered with "Well, one could say that they sort of..."
They require either a "yes" or a "no" answer, and it's quite easy to evidence what actually happened, without leaving room for any misunderstanding. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Robert Forstag 
United States
Local time: 09:56
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Kind of like a Speakers' Corner in Pyongyang... | Sep 11, 2016 |
Tom in London wrote: Norskpro wrote:
No need to complicate things. In addition to the Blue Board score, there is a comment field for any complaints one may have about the outsourcer. Yes, but the comments are monitored. Negative remarks are not allowed and you can no longer - as you once could - give a low score with the simple comment "for more details contact me privately" (though of course you can still give a low score and say nothing, leaving it up to others to use their brains....).
This indeed is the problem (or, more accurately, negative comments are usually prohibited but occasionally allowed, depending on who is doing the vetting of a given post).
A "comment" field isn't of much use if the only comments typically allowed are raptures and rhapsodies. The thing that strikes me about this censorship is how utterly unnecessary it is. The current system allows outsourcers to respond, and thus gives them an opportunity to refute low ratings and negative comments. I have seen this done effectively in many instances, and in ways that left me feeling more sympathy for the outsourcer than the rating freelancer.
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José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
High/Low rates on the Blue Board merely tend to confirm that the client is empowered to set the rates.
Nope, it would only confirm that some outsourcers pay low rates, no matter what you ask. Nothing more, nothing less.
IMHO the Blue Board should be OBJECTIVE, focusing on FACTS, which are easy to ascertain:
Even a "Are the rates in line with the community rates (Min. Std.) for your language pair/field?" would be quite easy to answer to in objective terms (actually, even more objectively than anything that uses a 1-5 scale...).
And the issue about the country of origin of the reviewer would be automatically solved by the fact that community rates are specific per pair/field (granted, it would be useful to have language variants) and by the indication of the reviewer's country of origin and language pair.
[Edited at 2016-09-11 17:06 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 15:56
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
IMHO the Blue Board should be OBJECTIVE, focusing on FACTS, which are easy to ascertain...
No, I think the BB should be subjective (as it currently is). If the BB became objective, it would narrow the focus to just a few things that only some translators find relevant.
One problem with objective information is that it tends to be job-specific. Instead of asking "did they give clear instructions", the question should be "do they generally give clear instructions". In addition, I'd rather see the sample answers worded in subjective ways that encourage a range of ratings from 1 to 5, instead of just "yes/no".
Some types of information may be objective but they are generally meaningless. Take the issue of community rates, for example. Yes, asking the translator to confidentially reveal the per-word rate, and then displaying a gradient to show how much the rate deviates from the community rate without actually revealing the rate, is fairly objective, but it assumes that the community rates are reliable.
Apart from three very low and three very high paying languages, all community rates are within 2c of 11c per word. The mean, median and mode of the combined community rates haven't really changed since 2010 (i.e. 11c per word). What's more, the rates reported for "community rates" purposes and the rates actually charged by translators are not the same (you can see this especially with translators who mention their real rates elsewhere on their profile page or web site or résumé).
In addition, my experience is that only some countries' rates mirror the community rates. A system that penalises downward deviation from the community rates will necessarily cause most Middle Eastern and Asian agencies to show very bad ratings, because the community rates system doesn't allow translators to indicate different rates for different markets.
The BB must also be fair to agencies.
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 15:56
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Lingua 5B wrote:
I may receive a reply from PM to my question in 7-10 days ... so it will not be a few seconds but it may turn into weeks. During these weeks I want to make informed decisions ASAP...
I don't understand this reasoning, though. If the PM takes 10 days to respond to your question, then it during those 10 days you don't need to make "informed decisions" with regard to that agency. Or am I wrong? What kinds of decisions do you need to make about agencies with whom negotiations have not yet progressed beyond the first reply?
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 15:56
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Too many items to rate/indicate | Sep 11, 2016 |
Mirko Mainardi wrote:
I'd rather avoid losing time taking and passing tests, reading up and signing abstruse NDAs and negotiating rates ...
What's so wrong in hearing other translators' opinions about such matters?
The problem is that the list of things that translators such as yourself might want to know about agencies would become very, very long. And that would make the submission form for adding ratings to the BB very complicated.
For example, it's not just about free tests. It's about whether the tests are reasonable. Some translators (yourself, perhaps) do not want any free tests. Others may be quite happy with free tests, as long as the word count is less than X, or as long as the file type is simple to work with, or as long as the deadline for the test is reasonable, or as long as the test is not a general test but one that could lead to a specific job. Others who don't like free tests may be happy with a half-rate paid test. Here you already have 6 radio buttons in the envisioned BB rating submission form, and that's just for tests.
Or take NDA related matters, for example. This would result in a list of checkbox items in the new BB rating submission form, with on the one hand items like "forced to sign NDA before discussing rates" and then specific NDA items on the other, like "forced to hand over copyright", "limitless indemnification", "limited indemnification", "penalties for late delivery", "penalties for poor quality" etc, and then you're not even saying what those penalties are (for different translators would consider different penalties fair or unfair). Can you see how long and complex that BB rating submission form will be?
This is what will happen if the BB focuses on objective information.
| | | | Jessica Noyes
United States
Local time: 09:56
Member
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Anonymous ratings | Sep 12, 2016 |
Preston Decker wrote:
The most useful feature you could add to the BB would be the ability for translators to provide ratings anonymously. Would be fairly simple to implement--you could simply allow any paying Proz member to make anonymous ratings, with companies' BB ratings to show 'Rating made anonymously by full Proz member' for such entries.
This would be enormously useful to all of us, as I suspect ratings would instantly become much more honest/lower (I basically don't rate agencies anymore, as there's simply too much potential business blowback for bad ratings).
Of course, the issue would be whether or not this is to risky for Proz in terms of potential litigation from agencies?
Well said, Preston.
This would keep agencies from claiming poor quality as a reason for non-payment.
We who are paying members of ProZ.com should not have to be wary of retribution for posting a low rating.
| | | | | Don't make Blue board ratings anonymous | Sep 12, 2016 |
Jessica Noyes wrote: Preston Decker wrote:
The most useful feature you could add to the BB would be the ability for translators to provide ratings anonymously. Would be fairly simple to implement--you could simply allow any paying Proz member to make anonymous ratings, with companies' BB ratings to show 'Rating made anonymously by full Proz member' for such entries.
This would be enormously useful to all of us, as I suspect ratings would instantly become much more honest/lower (I basically don't rate agencies anymore, as there's simply too much potential business blowback for bad ratings).
Of course, the issue would be whether or not this is to risky for Proz in terms of potential litigation from agencies? Well said, Preston. This would keep agencies from claiming poor quality as a reason for non-payment. We who are paying members of ProZ.com should not have to be wary of retribution for posting a low rating.
No, thank you. Don't make Blue board ratings anonymous. It would rob the the ratings of an important factor - the "who is it that rated that agency as bad or good".
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Lincoln Hui
Hong Kong
Local time: 21:56
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
| Noise vs signal | Sep 12, 2016 |
The Blue Board does a very simple thing - reveals clear red flags, which is the most important thing of all. By adding more you create the risk of diluting that information with various noise.
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Lincoln Hui wrote:
By adding more you create the risk of diluting that information with various noise.
We can all read, can't we? Would you really "get confused" by more information? Noise? The information would be short and to the point. The extra data would help you make a more informed decision... unless you are stooopid... and shouldn't be a translator in the first place... 
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 15:56
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| Example: travel websites. | Sep 12, 2016 |
It helps me checking out on an accommodation on different levels when traveling, such as: location, cleanness, staff politeness, bed comfort level, price, etc...
Different people will find different aspects important (eg. bed comfort vs. location vs. view from the balcony perhaps), so multidimensional reviews def. help and make sense.
I am sure Samuel will say now: just look at the accommodation images they uploaded, and if you have any other questions, just ask them di... See more It helps me checking out on an accommodation on different levels when traveling, such as: location, cleanness, staff politeness, bed comfort level, price, etc...
Different people will find different aspects important (eg. bed comfort vs. location vs. view from the balcony perhaps), so multidimensional reviews def. help and make sense.
I am sure Samuel will say now: just look at the accommodation images they uploaded, and if you have any other questions, just ask them directly.Well, the pictures they upload may be beautified and misrepresented big time, and secondly the answers they give me may not be fully accurate. Makes more sense to hear from people who have already stayed there as travelers, right? ▲ Collapse
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