| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | ProZ.com staff deleting Blue Board entry? Thread poster: Lingua 5B
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Lingua 5B 
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 15:19
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | That's a whole different topic. | Aug 3, 2016 |
Soonthon LUPKITARO(Ph.D.) wrote: Lingua 5B wrote:
Is the alleged quality issue an ultimate card to pull for any outsourcer with really bad reputation?
Quality issue is rather subjective. I met with claims from agencies on my alleged bad translation quality. I actually agencies hire outsiders to evaluate translation irresponsibly. In worse case, agencies themselves cannot read my translation target language e.g. Thai, Japanese. I am usually surprised with decision of Proz and I recently avoid to make any entries regarding non-payments with allegation of bad translation quality since I understand that Proz takes priorities for agencies. Soonthon L.
I don't find their quality issue remarks reasonable or accountable at all, but I summarized it one word only "alleged", that's why I keep putting it before every phrase dealing with it. That's a brief version of the story. The longer version is looking into every alleged error they allegedly spotted and how it qualifies as alleged quality issue (no idea how ProZ will look into that, but I hope in a reasonable way, it should not be difficult). To me it was enough when their alleged reviewer created completely new alleged words that cannot be found in any existing reference or dictionary anywhere (alien words). But there is more, just going around playing with synonyms at random. When I asked them to ask their proofreader to provide references for their choice of terms - just silence. However, I was easily able to provide quality references for my choice of terms. These boards have too narrow format to discuss all this in depth.
[Edited at 2016-08-03 15:17 GMT]
| | | | | Who analyses quality? | Aug 3, 2016 |
Is ProZ employing independent reviewers to analyse the "alleged" quality issues?
| | | | | Proz response not received | Aug 3, 2016 |
Paula Durrosier wrote: Hello everyone, Thanks for the response and for the details, Lingua 5B. As I mentioned in my reply, Blue Board related issues are analyzed on a case by case basis, always keeping the conditions for making those entries elaborated in Blue Board site rule #2, http://www.proz.com/siterules/general/2#2 , in mind when doing so. In the case you point out here, it would initially appear that the outsourcer did not make this quality complaint shortly after delivery. Quality complaints are only valid when they are made by the outsourcer shortly after delivery of the work. I am looking into your private correspondence now on this issue, and will respond on this point in the corresponding support request. As for your last point, please keep in mind that ProZ.com's termination policy is carried out no matter the Blue Board rating of a particular outsourcer. The Blue Board rating of a particular outsourcer simply reflects the service provider's personal willingness of working again with them in an scale of 1 to 5. If the outsourcer has two non-payment reports, then they are blocked from posting jobs or contacting translators on the site until all non-payment reports on their record are resolved. I think this may also address the issue you bring up, Jessica. Outsourcers are not automatically allowed to post jobs again if a non-payment report on their Blue Board record is contested. The block remains while the entry is being looked into, and, as I said, all non-payment reports must be resolved in order for their rights to be restored. For more information, please see the site's termination policy: http://www.proz.com/termination_policy . Moreover, to read more about how the Blue Board record works, you can refer to the article 'Using the ProZ.com Blue Board', here http://www.proz.com/translation-articles/articles/3491/ Finally, to address Jacqueline's point, I see that the entry you are referring to contained language that specifically discourages others from working with this outsourcer. I also see that you were asked via support request to repost your entry for that outsourcer, avoiding content of that nature, so that your entry would be in line with http://www.proz.com/faq/2995#2995 . Specifically, your entry should be focused on your own specific willingness to work again with the particular outsourcer and not contain any generalizations or explicit discouragement of others from working with the company. You are still welcome to repost your entry accordingly and continue your conversation with site staff via your support request on the issue. Thank you all for your feedback and please let me know if I can be of any further assistance. Best regards, Paula
I never received this message via support request (or by email for that matter). I also submitted a complaint regarding non-payment by this LSP and I have not received any response from Proz to this complaint either.
| | | | | Quality is assessed by the parties, not by ProZ.com site staff | Aug 3, 2016 |
Hello Alvaro,
Thanks for writing.
Please note that ProZ.com is not involved in the process of quality review. The site only serves as a venue between service providers and outsourcers. With this in mind, when a dispute between them arises, ProZ.com staff only investigate the evidence provided (such as the correspondence between the two parties) in order to mediate between the parties. It is during this process that staff only analyze whether the conditions to submit Bl... See more Hello Alvaro,
Thanks for writing.
Please note that ProZ.com is not involved in the process of quality review. The site only serves as a venue between service providers and outsourcers. With this in mind, when a dispute between them arises, ProZ.com staff only investigate the evidence provided (such as the correspondence between the two parties) in order to mediate between the parties. It is during this process that staff only analyze whether the conditions to submit Blue Board entries outlined in http://www.proz.com/siterules/blue_board_bb_blueboard/2#2 are met or not (that is, if the project was delivered late, if quality complaints were made shortly after delivery, etc.). Staff does not get involved (nor does any other person) in the quality review process itself.
Jacqueline, please note that you can check the support requests you have submitted in the 'My support requests' page here http://www.proz.com/support/my_requests . There, you will see that your last support request was closed on July 9th. In order to see the reply you received, please click on the request you want to see and then scroll down the page.
Hope this helps.
Please let me know if you need further help.
Best regards,
Paula ▲ Collapse
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| The importance of keeping records | Aug 4, 2016 |
The revelations in this thread show how important it is for translators to keep their translations and all correspondence concerning them at least until the bill has been settled. (I've seen some NDAs which require translators to delete all records either as soon as the work has been delivered or on demand by the outsourcer).
If the only way we can prove (to Proz) that our work was of good quality and that the outsourcer did not allege any quality problems within a given time, then keeping... See more The revelations in this thread show how important it is for translators to keep their translations and all correspondence concerning them at least until the bill has been settled. (I've seen some NDAs which require translators to delete all records either as soon as the work has been delivered or on demand by the outsourcer).
If the only way we can prove (to Proz) that our work was of good quality and that the outsourcer did not allege any quality problems within a given time, then keeping all translations and records until payment has been received is the only way to go. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Is that actually possible? | Aug 4, 2016 |
Jenny Forbes wrote:
If the only way we can prove (to Proz) that our work was of good quality and that the outsourcer did not allege any quality problems within a given time, then keeping all translations and records until payment has been received is the only way to go.
Based on what I read in this thread, it seems to me you can't really prove your work was "good", and that all a client has to do to avoid possible bad ratings on the BB is to send you an email "shortly after delivery", saying that there are some quality issues...
Considering that in most cases a reviewer will always find some (real or alleged) error in a translation, I guess that even receiving a reviewer's report from the client listing some errors could technically qualify as a case of "quality complaints"...
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 15:19
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Mirko Mainardi wrote: Jenny Forbes wrote:
If the only way we can prove (to Proz) that our work was of good quality and that the outsourcer did not allege any quality problems within a given time, then keeping all translations and records until payment has been received is the only way to go. Based on what I read in this thread, it seems to me you can't really prove your work was "good", and that all a client has to do to avoid possible bad ratings on the BB is to send you an email "shortly after delivery", saying that there are some quality issues... Considering that in most cases a reviewer will always find some (real or alleged) error in a translation, I guess that even receiving a reviewer's report from the client listing some errors could technically qualify as a case of "quality complaints"...
You seem to be right. It does not really matter if these errors are fake, made up or just a matter of subjective stylistic perception, all that it takes is to extract them, label them as quality issue and report them "shortly after delivery". Then your 1 entry will be non-existing even if they owe you say $5k. On the other hand, a client may owe you $20 and the entry will be visible, just because they didn't report anything "shortly after delivery".
Sounds troublesome.
For example, quoting Mirko:
1. Considering that in most cases a reviewer will always find some (real or alleged) error
Correction:
1. Taking into account that in most cases a reviewer will always find some (real or alleged) error
Can I report a quality issue please and be free from payment? This is what happened in my case, they rewrote my entire translation, and then reported quality issues (like in the example above). But it was done with every sentence, without any functional reason. Sometimes synonyms have functional reasons, but not in this case.
[Edited at 2016-08-04 10:14 GMT]
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I want to scam translators?
I can order a €1,000 translation and 5 days after delivery tell the translator that there were very important quality issues and that therefore I won't be paying him/her. To prove these quality issues, I can attach his/her file reviewed by a friend of mine with plenty of things crossed out and dozens of comments. Or maybe I won't even need to use a friend of mine as a reviewer, just someone that is eager to please me and "somehow" convinced that the tr... See more I want to scam translators?
I can order a €1,000 translation and 5 days after delivery tell the translator that there were very important quality issues and that therefore I won't be paying him/her. To prove these quality issues, I can attach his/her file reviewed by a friend of mine with plenty of things crossed out and dozens of comments. Or maybe I won't even need to use a friend of mine as a reviewer, just someone that is eager to please me and "somehow" convinced that the translation is bad. Then what? I can walk away with the money and with a perfect Blue Board record? ▲ Collapse
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Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 15:19
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Alvaro Espantaleon wrote:
Then what? I can walk away with the money and with a perfect Blue Board record?
Exactly, poker players know how to play the game.
| | | | | On the 'Crying quality' pattern | Aug 4, 2016 |
Hi all,
Alvaro Espantaleon wrote:
I can order a €1,000 translation and 5 days after delivery tell the translator that there were very important quality issues and that therefore I won't be paying him/her. To prove these quality issues, I can attach his/her file reviewed by a friend of mine with plenty of things crossed out and dozens of comments. Or maybe I won't even need to use a friend of mine as a reviewer, just someone that is eager to please me and "somehow" convinced that the translation is bad. Then what? I can walk away with the money and with a perfect Blue Board record?
Legitimate scams are investigated and addressed by site staff too. See http://www.proz.com/about/translator-scam-alerts
As for "crying quality" when dealing with Blue Board entries, as Jared says in http://www.proz.com/post/1849964#1849964 , this is generally easy to detect and address.
Best regards,
Paula Durrosier
ProZ.com Staff
| | | | Ralf Lemster
Germany
Local time: 15:19
English to German
+ ...
It's sad to see how the BB has evolved.
Ralf
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 09:19
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Bias in favor of outsourcers | Aug 7, 2016 |
Ralf Lemster wrote:
It's sad to see how the BB has evolved.
Ralf
Positive ratings and comments are immediately accepted while many (if not most) negative comments are immediately rejected.
It is hard to see this clearly established pattern as anything other than a bias in favor of the outsourcers listed on the BB and against translators reporting unsatisfactory experiences with said outsourcers.
The rules regarding negative comments on the BB are also applied in a highly inconsistent way. Thus, I continually see harsh comments on the BB of recent origin, and yet any time during the past few years when I have tried to post a negative comment, it has been rejected for somehow being out of compliance with the rules.
Given that some of my own rejected comments have been considerably less harsh than those I've seen posted, this pattern is truly baffling. Maybe it all depends on who is doing the vetting at a given time.
The BB allows the "safe option" of posting a rating of "1" or "2" without any accompanying comment. This is the route I've taken when I've had problems with outsourcers, but it really is unsatisfactory, as it provides no justification of the rating, and requires anyone consulting the record to take the extra step of contacting the rater via e-mail in order to find out the story behind the low rating.
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:19
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Instead of posting a negative comment about a bad agency, I used to simply give a low score and my only comment was "contact me privately for further details."
Apparently you can't even do that now.
I too am sad about what has happened to the BlueBoard. But it could be fixed, if there was a desire to do so.
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 14:19
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Tom in London wrote:
Instead of posting a negative comment about a bad agency, I used to simply give a low score and my only comment was "contact me privately for further details."
Apparently you can't even do that now.
That's not good. What is staff's response to an entry of that sort?
| | | | | What is the purpose of the Blue Board? | Aug 8, 2016 |
I thought the purpose of the Blue Board was to inform translators about outsourcers (both good and bad) and to warn them about bad ones - late/non-payers, etc.
The revelations in this thread make it look as if the Blue Board is there primarily to "protect" outsourcers from negative disclosures by translators.
If we now can't even enter a low score without any negative comment unless we can "prove" to Proz that our work was acceptable and that the outsourcer did not allege poor... See more I thought the purpose of the Blue Board was to inform translators about outsourcers (both good and bad) and to warn them about bad ones - late/non-payers, etc.
The revelations in this thread make it look as if the Blue Board is there primarily to "protect" outsourcers from negative disclosures by translators.
If we now can't even enter a low score without any negative comment unless we can "prove" to Proz that our work was acceptable and that the outsourcer did not allege poor quality within a given time, then the Blue Board loses much of its value.
I myself recently and most reluctantly decided not to make a negative entry about an outsourcer who, I think, treated me shabbily for fear of (a) not getting paid anything for the job concerned and (b) the outsourcer unfairly alleging poor performance which might damage my reputation. Now that I have been paid (less than originally agreed), I suppose I could make a negative entry but I'd still run the risk that the outsourcer might make a negative comment about my work and I no longer have all the correspondence about the job with which to "prove my innocence". I'd certainly never work for this outsourcer again. ▲ Collapse
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