| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Staff: Can you do something about the ubiquitous big recruitments for small jobs? Thread poster: Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz
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| Recommendations? | Apr 1, 2016 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote: Jared Tabor wrote:
I would support any initiative geared toward providing well-formulated information/education to those seeking high-quality human translations, if this improves the chances of matching them with good translators.
nearly stopped reading there... but I didn't... 
I almost stopped typing there! But then I just went on typing...
The majority of work passed through ProZ.com does not go through the job posting system, but through the directory and direct contact through profiles.
Indeed, but, unfortunately, the "visible" ones are usually an insult to professional translators and ProZ has now gained the unfortunate reputation of a site for bottom feeders... in turn, this has put off many of us, who now refuse to be associated with the site and have stopped the membership... probably you get plenty of "turn over", so you are not concerned, but I was wondering if you are concerned with your site's reputation? I don't think so, since you are not doing much to stop the trend...
It is probably safe to say that staff are not thinking so much in terms of reputation but of whether what they are doing supports the site's mission ( http://www.proz.com/about/ ). For a very large number of people, this is working, but there's always room for improvement. With regards to rate information in posted jobs, "budget information", when provided, is only visible if you choose to see it-- this was one of the changes that came from the petition in 2010 ( http://www.proz.com/about/ipetition/changes ).
What would you recommend?
| | | | | thanks for replying... | Apr 2, 2016 |
Jared Tabor wrote:
What would you recommend?
I would recommend asking the job posters to pay a fee to post a job... this, in my opinion, would separate the wheat from the chaff. I know this is probably not very viable for you, since they would just go somewhere else. But I believe it would make the job board less crowded with bottom feeders and more in tune with the professional world. It would also serve much better its members (i.e. the translators) for which this site was originally created for...
| | | | Sheila Wilson 
Spain
Local time: 11:28
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| How about the middle road? | Apr 2, 2016 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
I would recommend asking the job posters to pay a fee to post a job... this, in my opinion, would separate the wheat from the chaff. I know this is probably not very viable for you, since they would just go somewhere else. But I believe it would make the job board less crowded with bottom feeders and more in tune with the professional world. It would also serve much better its members (i.e. the translators) for which this site was originally created for...
I don't want to discourage potential clients from contacting me. So how about this compromise solution:
1) Public jobs posted by a paying member of the site (corporate outsourcer or paying translator) - no charge
2) Contacts through the directory to 10 or fewer translators - no charge
3) Contacts directly through our profiles - no charge (of course)
4) Public jobs posted by non-paying site users - a charge per job
5) Contacts through the directory to over 10 translators (if allowed) - a charge (per list? per contact?)
6) Contacts through the directory to "all translators" who meet the selection criteria - service withdrawn
Personally, I would say that in today's climate, with various types of spamming now seen as an offence and certainly to be discouraged, I really don't think ProZ.com should be facilitating mass emailing. And certainly, as paying members, we should be allowed to protect ourselves from it. Sending notifications of jobs that the poster has paid for and that pass the filters we ourselves have set for notification is not spamming, but an identical email sent to all translators offering a particular service definitely is, IMHO.
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Sheila Wilson wrote: Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
I would recommend asking the job posters to pay a fee to post a job... this, in my opinion, would separate the wheat from the chaff. I know this is probably not very viable for you, since they would just go somewhere else. But I believe it would make the job board less crowded with bottom feeders and more in tune with the professional world. It would also serve much better its members (i.e. the translators) for which this site was originally created for... I don't want to discourage potential clients from contacting me. So how about this compromise solution: 1) Public jobs posted by a paying member of the site (corporate outsourcer or paying translator) - no charge 2) Contacts through the directory to 10 or fewer translators - no charge 3) Contacts directly through our profiles - no charge (of course) 4) Public jobs posted by non-paying site users - a charge per job 5) Contacts through the directory to over 10 translators (if allowed) - a charge (per list? per contact?) 6) Contacts through the directory to "all translators" who meet the selection criteria - service withdrawn Personally, I would say that in today's climate, with various types of spamming now seen as an offence and certainly to be discouraged, I really don't think ProZ.com should be facilitating mass emailing. And certainly, as paying members, we should be allowed to protect ourselves from it. Sending notifications of jobs that the poster has paid for and that pass the filters we ourselves have set for notification is not spamming, but an identical email sent to all translators offering a particular service definitely is, IMHO.
seems a bit overcomplicated to me... no offence! But, of course, if you are already a paying member, you wouldn't be charged... that makes sense... of course, the real problem is the reverse bidding system, but that's a different kettle of fish...
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Jo Macdonald
Spain
Local time: 12:28
Italian to English
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| Excellent suggestion | Apr 2, 2016 |
I don't want to discourage potential clients from contacting me. So how about this compromise solution:
1) Public jobs posted by a paying member of the site (corporate outsourcer or paying translator) - no charge
2) Contacts through the directory to 10 or fewer translators - no charge
3) Contacts directly through our profiles - no charge (of course)
4) Public jobs posted by non-paying site users - a charge per job
5) Contacts through the directory to over 10 translators (if allowed) - a charge (per list? per contact?)
6) Contacts through the directory to "all translators" who meet the selection criteria - service withdrawn
Personally, I would say that in today's climate, with various types of spamming now seen as an offence and certainly to be discouraged, I really don't think ProZ.com should be facilitating mass emailing. And certainly, as paying members, we should be allowed to protect ourselves from it. Sending notifications of jobs that the poster has paid for and that pass the filters we ourselves have set for notification is not spamming, but an identical email sent to all translators offering a particular service definitely is, IMHO.
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 11:28
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| I think it's the way I expressed it that's over-complicated | Apr 2, 2016 |
I was trying to cover every base. How about if my proposed functionality were expressed this way:
1) Public jobs posted by non-paying site users: a charge per job
2) Contacts through the directory to "all translators" who meet the selection criteria: service withdrawn
Those are the two important parts, AFAIC. Then there's the side issue of whether to restrict the number of contacts made at an... See more I was trying to cover every base. How about if my proposed functionality were expressed this way:
1) Public jobs posted by non-paying site users: a charge per job
2) Contacts through the directory to "all translators" who meet the selection criteria: service withdrawn
Those are the two important parts, AFAIC. Then there's the side issue of whether to restrict the number of contacts made at any one time to something less than 100. I would personally vote for 10. That's a number that should return a range of quotes even allowing for non-replies.
I don't personally feel as though I'm taking part in a "reverse bidding system" when I quote for jobs on ProZ.com. There are indeed some sites where that happens; where the poster gives a maximum and everyone's quote has to be that or lower and is displayed against your name. That's horrible! But the jobs here simply aren't like that. For a start, posters are not allowed to dictate a rate nowadays. They can enter a budget, but not everyone can see it and you can always choose to keep it hidden. Plus there's a note to the effect that quoters are not constrained by it. And finally, nobody apart from the poster gets to see how much you've quoted. Isn't that the way any tendering process works? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I support your suggestion | Apr 2, 2016 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
I don't want to discourage potential clients from contacting me. So how about this compromise solution:
1) Public jobs posted by a paying member of the site (corporate outsourcer or paying translator) - no charge
2) Contacts through the directory to 10 or fewer translators - no charge
3) Contacts directly through our profiles - no charge (of course)
4) Public jobs posted by non-paying site users - a charge per job
5) Contacts through the directory to over 10 translators (if allowed) - a charge (per list? per contact?)
6) Contacts through the directory to "all translators" who meet the selection criteria - service withdrawn
I also think it is an excellent suggestion.
[Edited at 2016-04-02 11:59 GMT]
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Sheila Wilson wrote: I was trying to cover every base . How about if my proposed functionality were expressed this way: 1) Public jobs posted by non-paying site users: a charge per job 2) Contacts through the directory to "all translators" who meet the selection criteria: service withdrawn
Much better...
I don't personally feel as though I'm taking part in a "reverse bidding system"
well, but we are... it's the nature of dealing with agencies and clients... they have a budget and usually won't pay more than that... sure, some agency ask for your rate, and posters are not allowed to dictate a rate, but they still have a budget... I don't really see a difference. Might not be "reverse", but we are still "bidding" for jobs posted here and it shouldn't be like that.
Personally, I would like to see the jobs area gone, forever.
[Edited at 2016-04-02 10:54 GMT]
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| The budget issue | Apr 3, 2016 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote: Sheila Wilson wrote:
I don't personally feel as though I'm taking part in a "reverse bidding system" well, but we are... it's the nature of dealing with agencies and clients... they have a budget and usually won't pay more than that... sure, some agency ask for your rate, and posters are not allowed to dictate a rate, but they still have a budget... I don't really see a difference. Might not be "reverse", but we are still "bidding" for jobs posted here and it shouldn't be like that.
While I take the chance to endorse Sheila's and Giovanni's suggestions, one point seems to have been left aside:
Where does this this sacred "budget" come from?
My take is that it is too often "calculated" by averaging down numerous job offers at grovelling rates, which were previously calculated in the very same way, thus drawing the downward spiral.
If we equated these translation "budgets" to catering services, in most wedding parties you'd see waiters serving watered-down cleaning spirits in plastic glasses instead of the usual liquor and wines deemed adequate for civilized human consumption.
One way to halt or reverse this spiral could be to charge for the omission of job size and/or rate offered information.
So if a paying corporate member wants to post a job for free, all right, but please indicate the job size (words, characters, hours, whatever) AND the rate offered. If they want to omit that for any reason (don't have a job, don't wanna 'waste time doing OCR', are merely on a hunting expedition for CVs, want a reverse auction to leverage profits) let them PAY for that.
A couple of wild guesses (anyone is welcome to improve them):
- $10 per day the job remains open without a stated dimension
- $15 per day the job remains open without a proposed rate
- $20 per day a "no-job, just fishing with a net for translators in umpteen language pairs" post remains open
Free users would have these fees added to whatever job-posting fees were chosen to be charged from them.
IMHO something like this might start educating translation outsourcers.
Do you guys think it could work?
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 06:28
Spanish to English
+ ...
| My suggestions | Apr 3, 2016 |
Unless I am missing something, both Giovanni's and Sheila's suggestions would allow the continuation of the current unacceptable state of affairs - just so long as the parties posting lowball offers on the site, and flooding site members' inboxes with such offers, cough up a little extra cash for the right to do so.
I do not see any virtue in creating a system in which those seeking translation services at below-market prices pay for the right to waste our time with such offers. Th... See more Unless I am missing something, both Giovanni's and Sheila's suggestions would allow the continuation of the current unacceptable state of affairs - just so long as the parties posting lowball offers on the site, and flooding site members' inboxes with such offers, cough up a little extra cash for the right to do so.
I do not see any virtue in creating a system in which those seeking translation services at below-market prices pay for the right to waste our time with such offers. These suggestions also don't seem to adequately address the continued degrading of the Jobs Board as a byword for bargain basement offers.
I think that the solution is a lot simpler (and is something that I have suggested previously):
1.
Shade in light green all job offers appearing on the Jobs Board that are below 80% of rates accepted by professional translators, and include a legend explaining what the shading means.
2.
Include a notice re below-market rate in large bold font at the top of the page of each such offer (i.e., what we see when after we click on the offer on the Jobs Board) identical to the one that currently appears in smaller print toward the bottom of the offer page.
Implicit in the new system would be that inclusion of a budget or budget range would be mandatory. (This would prevent posters from getting around having their offers tagged as grossly below-market by simply not indicating specific budget information, and instead using code words like "best rate," etc.)
There is no point in eliminating budget information. As Giovanni rightly points out, outsourcers always have a budget, and are rarely inclined to exceed that budget. If an offer is unacceptably low, I think most of us would prefer to know this right away, rather than after taking the time to draft and send a quote to the poster.
My proposal would have the virtue of allowing any and all offers (including penny-a-word specials from Indian agencies) to continue to be posted on the Jobs Board, while making it clear to everyone using the board that such offers are not the "norm" in the industry. Introducing such a change would also support the site's mission, which I think implies connecting translators with buyers offering rates that allow them to live in conditions significantly above those of abject poverty.... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 11:28
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| You want clients to set the rate? | Apr 3, 2016 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
So if a paying corporate member wants to post a job for free, all right, but please indicate the job size (words, characters, hours, whatever) AND the rate offered.
Have I misunderstood that? You want ProZ.com to encourage clients to state what they are going to pay us? The petition that was presented to staff a few years back, and acted on, was aimed at exactly the opposite: stopping clients stating a rate.
As service providers, we're the ones who should be setting our own rates, providing our own quotes. Clients can then do one of three things: accept the rate, reject it, or they can try to negotiate. To offer clients the possibility of insulting us by taking away that right, and even encouraging the practice by offering it as the cheaper option for posting a job, seems very strange.
Where does this this sacred "budget" come from?
My take is that it is too often "calculated" by averaging down numerous job offers at grovelling rates, which were previously calculated in the very same way, thus drawing the downward spiral.
It might well be. That's why we don't want it plastered all over jobs posted publicly, thank you! We had it taken out of job posts, but clients art still able to post their budget in a separate area so that those of us who care to see it can sign up to do so. Perhaps Jared could advise us on what exactly the rules are for having this budget visible? Does everyone have the option to see it?
| | | | | I have that option | Apr 3, 2016 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
Does everyone have the option to see it?
Actually I do not rememeber what I activated for seeing it... I need to check
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getting rid of the job posting section altogether? Also, in other sites job posts offering less than 0.05-0.06 are deleted.
| | | | | Ehm, actually yes | Apr 3, 2016 |
Sheila Wilson wrote: You want clients to set the rate? José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
So if a paying corporate member wants to post a job for free, all right, but please indicate the job size (words, characters, hours, whatever) AND the rate offered. Have I misunderstood that? You want ProZ.com to encourage clients to state what they are going to pay us? The petition that was presented to staff a few years back, and acted on, was aimed at exactly the opposite: stopping clients stating a rate.
On posted jobs, I'd say yes.
From my experience with Proz, most clients approaching translators (i.e. outside the jobs board) directly ASK for their rates.
On the other hand, most prospects posting jobs on the job board without mentioning a rate demand immediately:
- hours of filling out e-forms hosted on a slow server
- signed NDAs, NCAs (non-compete) via snail-mail
- copies of diplomas, passport, pics of spouse, children & pets
- abusively long tests
... to eventually tell applicants that they pay US 2¢/word, 60 days after month end.
My take when they post on the job board, they probably have someone who can do it, however they wanna find someone CHEAPER.
Sheila Wilson wrote:
As service providers, we're the ones who should be setting our own rates, providing our own quotes. Clients can then do one of three things: accept the rate, reject it, or they can try to negotiate. To offer clients the possibility of insulting us by taking away that right, and even encouraging the practice by offering it as the cheaper option for posting a job, seems very strange.
Most definitely! That's why the serious outsourcers - as Jared said - use the Proz database to contact translators directly and ASK how much we charge.
For those cheap bottom-feeders who try to lure Prozians into low-paying jobs, let them pay through the nose!
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Where does this this sacred "budget" come from?
My take is that it is too often "calculated" by averaging down numerous job offers at grovelling rates, which were previously calculated in the very same way, thus drawing the downward spiral.
Sheila Wilson wrote:
It might well be. That's why we don't want it plastered all over jobs posted publicly, thank you! We had it taken out of job posts, but clients art still able to post their budget in a separate area so that those of us who care to see it can sign up to do so. Perhaps Jared could advise us on what exactly the rules are for having this budget visible? Does everyone have the option to see it?
I think paying members can see this budget, while free users don't.
| | | | MK2010
United States
Local time: 06:28
French to English
+ ...
| I sort of agree... | Apr 3, 2016 |
...that there should be more info displayed in a job post, including rates or budget. Yes, translators set their own rates, so then it would be up to us to decide whether we want to bid on such and such job. I think it would save us a lot of time. Because it does take time to respond to an offer, write a cover letter targeted directly to that potential client, update your CV if necessary, etc.
Say once in a great while you see an ad for a job that you're really interested in. You ta... See more ...that there should be more info displayed in a job post, including rates or budget. Yes, translators set their own rates, so then it would be up to us to decide whether we want to bid on such and such job. I think it would save us a lot of time. Because it does take time to respond to an offer, write a cover letter targeted directly to that potential client, update your CV if necessary, etc.
Say once in a great while you see an ad for a job that you're really interested in. You take the time to craft a convincing letter and explain why you're perfect for the job. You quote, for instance 0.10 USD / word. That's your rate and you won't go lower, and you know that. What you don't know, is that the job poster has a set budget, and he's actually not prepared to go over 0.06 USD / word. He will most likely simply delete your candidacy, and you just spent all that time bidding for nothing. There was no point to it whatsoever, you never stood a chance because you + client were simply not a good fit.
Now, say a job post includes all the information a translator needs to decide whether or not she's interested in a job:
-Language pair
-Type of material
-Word count
-Deadline
-Required software
-Required experience
-Budget or rate or at least a range.
In one quick glance you know whether or not you want to take the time to bid on this job. You don't even need to click on the link to read a full description to know you're NOT interested-- you can delete immediately and get back to work without a huge break in your concentration. If you are interested, then yes, you click for more info.
So let's say the job in question is posted with a 0.06 USD / word rate.
Those translators who will respond are translators who are willing or who can afford to accept that rate. So now the competition is down to the most qualified.
I think everybody wins that way. So yes, personally I agree that all that information should be included right up front. We may set our own rates, but there's no point wasting a bunch of time trying to get jobs that aren't prepared to offer those rates. You don't go car shopping at the Mercedes dealership if all you can afford is a Kia, and if you're the Mercedes salesman, you certainly don't want to see Kia buyers wasting everybody's time on your lot.
And: on those occasions we want to go for a job anyway in the hopes of getting the client to accept a better rate, well there's absolutely nothing stopping us. Negotiation is always an option and we are free to bid anyway and try to argue our case. I'm sure we've all done that successfully at some point or another.
Finally: who knows, if bottom feeders were forced to provide a rate up front, and they suddenly found that instead of getting the 90 bids they usually get they were now only getting 10 bids, this could actually encourage some job posters to up their budgets in an effort to widen the pool of qualified candidates. ▲ Collapse
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