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Client wants to change a closed invoice
Thread poster: Laura Chiesa
Veronica Montserrat
Veronica Montserrat
France
Local time: 18:38
Member (2020)
English to French
+ ...
The question is Mar 16, 2021

why would you like to continue working with someone you suspect is doing something unfair or illegal?

It's obviously not your fault. But they are trying to say it is.

If, for whatever reason, you would like to continue working with them, tell them you'll apply a discount on the next order.

They did not do their job or not well, you should not be the one who has to pay for their mistakes.

I wish you good luck with that tricky situation.


MollyRose
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
 
Laura Chiesa
Laura Chiesa  Identity Verified
Local time: 17:38
Member (2017)
English to Italian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you for your valuable input! Mar 16, 2021

I have read with great interest all your points of view. I never had to deal with anything like this (not even close - I am lucky to have enjoyed good relationships with all of my clients), so it is useful to hear some advice. I think I am a bit of a "lamb" when it comes to money matters... but this really seems excessively unfair.

Adieu
 
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Nikki Scott-Despaigne  Identity Verified
Local time: 18:38
French to English
Privity of contract Mar 16, 2021

Although this notion as expressed is from English law, many countries have something similar. Put simply, your direct contractual relationship is with the agent. The agent is in a direct contractual relationship with you and the end client. The terms and conditions established between you and the agent appear to have been complied with. The agent provided you with source material that you agreed to translate. You translated that material and the agent paid you.

The agent appears to
... See more
Although this notion as expressed is from English law, many countries have something similar. Put simply, your direct contractual relationship is with the agent. The agent is in a direct contractual relationship with you and the end client. The terms and conditions established between you and the agent appear to have been complied with. The agent provided you with source material that you agreed to translate. You translated that material and the agent paid you.

The agent appears to have messed up his organisation with the end client and is now trying to go into reverse mode. The agent's mistake carries a cost that he alone should bear, it seems. On this first basic contractual level, from the information provided, I would be very surprised if the agent were able to seek any redress from you.

The second point is the agent asking you to go into reverse mode and redo paperwork after the fact. That is very fishy and probably illegal. There are fairly basic procedures in most countries to cover accidental overpayment, banking errors, etc. Parties who have worked together for a while and who wish to continue working together might even consider coming to an arrangement where a lower rate could be agreed on future projects to offset an overpayment. That just does not work here as it is not an overpayment. The agent stuffed up and the agent has to bear the brunt of that.

Now for that tricky bit. This agent is a "good" client, you say. The agent might have been a good client until this incident, but he is acting in his own best interests and paying no heed to yours. An agent is an intermediary and takes his percentage cut for that reason. A good agent also acts in your interests. Not all go that extra mile. Some do. Some go above and beyond. This particular incident does not show this agent in a very good light. Feelings should not come into business relationships, but in reality, we cannot ignore the fact that they do. We prefer to work with people we appreciate. Liking them is different from respecting them.

Don't forget that the agent sought your services for a reason. Do not consider that you are in a weak position because you are the worker at the end of the chain and because the agent is the paymaster. Without your skill, the agent would not have a service to sell on to his end client. I know that sounds a bit excessive because we both know it is true only to a certain extent as the client can always go elsewhere. Remeber so can you.

Now imagine you were on the outside looking in. What is your gut feeling? You have answered that one: this is unfair and probably illegal. It smells fishy. It seems like you have done nothing wrong. The agent was probably acting in good faith at the outset. However, he is not facing up to the responsibility for a mistake. He even has the downright cheek to suggest you bear some of the burden for it?! That seems not just unreasonable; it is totally shocking behaviour from a business colleague. Trust your instinct. This stinks.

Can you really continue to work with this "good" client? At best, he is probably not that "good", not at the moment anyway. At worst, could you continue to trust him in the future? If this agency provides you with a large part of your income, then it would be wise to seek new providers of work. Easier said than done.

On one point, I think you have no choice but to refuse to go into reverse mode. Further, you may even find that your refusal does not prevent the agency from contacting you for work as you have shown that you can stick to your guns and behave in a professional way. You will certainly be all the wiser.

Good luck with this. It's unpleasant when it happens and it uses lots of nervous energy. If you have doubts, legal advice may be worth the investment. Believe me, unless this is a one-off, you do not want clients like this. Your trust and respect for the agency has probably been tarnished and probably for good reason!
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MollyRose
Laura Chiesa
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
Philip Lees
Jan Willem van Dormolen (X)
 
Mervyn Henderson (X)
Mervyn Henderson (X)  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 18:38
Spanish to English
+ ...
Tricky Mar 16, 2021

"You delivered the job as required, and got paid. That is the end of the story." - Tom in London

Sometimes - no, many times - I agree with Tom in London. As many people here know, he rarely agrees with me, but that's beside the point:

It all depends on how much you need them. If that's a lot, then you're screwed, and you have to play ball. It's unlikely this would happen again, but you should keep watch for the same end customer, because getting screwed once is unfortun
... See more
"You delivered the job as required, and got paid. That is the end of the story." - Tom in London

Sometimes - no, many times - I agree with Tom in London. As many people here know, he rarely agrees with me, but that's beside the point:

It all depends on how much you need them. If that's a lot, then you're screwed, and you have to play ball. It's unlikely this would happen again, but you should keep watch for the same end customer, because getting screwed once is unfortunate, to paraphrase Oscar Wilde, but getting screwed twice looks like carelessness. So cut out the carelessness.

But you could get screwed next time too, so it might be better to woman up, and fight for the money you deserve. At least they paid you, anyway. Other people get told before they get paid, and they don't get paid. I imagine you have already done so, but I would state your case that the process was followed, reps are normal etc., and so you are entitled to full payment.

Some people try it on. Somewhere at your customer's office - forget the end customer, because you don't have two customers, do you? - somewhere at your customer's office, somebody is saying to somebody else, "So what? We just passively threaten her, and she has to take the fall", because, although they have zero argument, they reason that Laura will roll over because she needs them.

But they are forgetting that, if Laura is good, and she must be, because they keep using her (you said they were a good client), that they might lose Laura over this. So I would intimate to them, very politely, something along the lines of "I understand what you're saying and I regret the inconvenience, but really, the problem lies with your customer, and not with me". Let them deal with the end customer because, as I said before, you don't have two customers.


[Edited at 2021-03-16 19:21 GMT]
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Yolanda Broad
Laura Chiesa
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
Philip Lees
 
Vanda Nissen
Vanda Nissen  Identity Verified
Australia
Local time: 03:38
Member (2008)
English to Russian
+ ...
Tricky Mar 16, 2021

It is a tricky situation. I like the idea of offering a smallish (around 10% discount) on your next project. You see, the problem is that even if you agree to the reduction of your current invoice, they may still terminate your collaboration if they think that it was your responsibility to notify them about repetitions (people like looking for scapegoats!). In this case, you may end up with losing both this client and your well-earned money. While when you offer a discount on your next project w... See more
It is a tricky situation. I like the idea of offering a smallish (around 10% discount) on your next project. You see, the problem is that even if you agree to the reduction of your current invoice, they may still terminate your collaboration if they think that it was your responsibility to notify them about repetitions (people like looking for scapegoats!). In this case, you may end up with losing both this client and your well-earned money. While when you offer a discount on your next project with them and they agree to that, it will imply the continuation of your collaboration.Collapse


Laura Chiesa
 
3089491 (X)
3089491 (X)  Identity Verified
Luxembourg
Local time: 18:38
Make a list (continued) Mar 17, 2021

That is important. In case you do it, we should all be grateful to you.

If, despite some significant repetitions,, you had no inclination to grant a discount when you issued the invoice, it is - I would assume - because other aspects of the project were particularly complex, time-consuming and stressing.

If the final client undestands the work was quantified accurately - and there are, unfortunately, instances when word-based work measurement does not serve us well, th
... See more
That is important. In case you do it, we should all be grateful to you.

If, despite some significant repetitions,, you had no inclination to grant a discount when you issued the invoice, it is - I would assume - because other aspects of the project were particularly complex, time-consuming and stressing.

If the final client undestands the work was quantified accurately - and there are, unfortunately, instances when word-based work measurement does not serve us well, they will know translators are not greedy.

***
Just to make it clear: this situation is particularly unfair to you. It shoudn't happen.
Not knowing ALL the details, it is difficult to say whether continuing to work with this agency is actually a good idea.
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Katalin Horváth McClure
Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 13:38
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Another angle - scheduling Mar 17, 2021

Laura, when you accepted the project with X words, deadline and payment indicated on the request, you put the project on your schedule and reserved the time that you normally need to translate those X words. This means you had dedicated that time to this project, and had to refuse any other jobs/inquiries that would have come in during that reserved time.
It doesn't matter if, at the end, you were able to finish the job faster due to repetitions your software (that you purchased with your
... See more
Laura, when you accepted the project with X words, deadline and payment indicated on the request, you put the project on your schedule and reserved the time that you normally need to translate those X words. This means you had dedicated that time to this project, and had to refuse any other jobs/inquiries that would have come in during that reserved time.
It doesn't matter if, at the end, you were able to finish the job faster due to repetitions your software (that you purchased with your own money!!!) found, or because you had a super-carb breakfast and were on a roll, or some other reason, you reserved that time for the project and that should be paid as agreed.
What would happen if your clients started to demand discounts - after the fact - because you delivered projects earlier than the deadline? (Oh, it must have been easy, we want to cut your rate!)

[Edited at 2021-03-17 03:57 GMT]
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Christopher Schröder
Sheila Wilson
Sandra & Kenneth Grossman
Laura Chiesa
ahartje
 
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Nikki Scott-Despaigne  Identity Verified
Local time: 18:38
French to English
@Mervyn Mar 17, 2021

Mervyn Henderson wrote:

"You delivered the job as required, and got paid. That is the end of the story." - Tom in London

Sometimes - no, many times - I agree with Tom in London. As many people here know, he rarely agrees with me, but that's beside the point:

It all depends on how much you need them. If that's a lot, then you're screwed, and you have to play ball. It's unlikely this would happen again, but you should keep watch for the same end customer, because getting screwed once is unfortunate, to paraphrase Oscar Wilde, but getting screwed twice looks like carelessness. So cut out the carelessness.

But you could get screwed next time too, so it might be better to woman up, and fight for the money you deserve. At least they paid you, anyway. Other people get told before they get paid, and they don't get paid. I imagine you have already done so, but I would state your case that the process was followed, reps are normal etc., and so you are entitled to full payment.

Some people try it on. Somewhere at your customer's office - forget the end customer, because you don't have two customers, do you? - somewhere at your customer's office, somebody is saying to somebody else, "So what? We just passively threaten her, and she has to take the fall", because, although they have zero argument, they reason that Laura will roll over because she needs them.

But they are forgetting that, if Laura is good, and she must be, because they keep using her (you said they were a good client), that they might lose Laura over this. So I would intimate to them, very politely, something along the lines of "I understand what you're saying and I regret the inconvenience, but really, the problem lies with your customer, and not with me". Let them deal with the end customer because, as I said before, you don't have two customers.


[Edited at 2021-03-16 19:21 GMT]


The difficulty in this particular instance is that Laura is potentially being drawn into something that is dodgy accounting wise and that in the longer term, this could attract problems.

Sometimes bearing one's teeth, affirming one's professionalism, which can be done politely of course, means the client will accept the stand you are taking. If the client values Laura's continued collaboration, this may work. If the agent has gone into mad-mode, it may be difficult to be heard.

I agree that we do not always realize that we have some strength in our situation. Without us, the agents would be unable to meet their clients' needs. However, there are a few of us around and we are fairly replaceable. If we find ourselves with a client who is providing a large chunk of our work, then we are vulnerable. It's an awkward situation to be in and probably more common than many care to admit.

The end client is indeed the agent's problem (cf. privity of contract).

From a contractual point of view, if both parties (translator and agent) have complied with what was agreed, a problem on pricing and/or calculation methods arises, then that does not enable the agent to go into reverse mode. If the terms and conditions provide for this type of thing where a clear error has occurred, then the contract should also provide for how this is to be corrected in terms of procedure. Whether that is the case or not, if things do ever need to be corrected, that cannot involve modifying the paperwork after the fact. That is almost always likely to be illegal. There is a difference! Legal corrective measures are likely to involve issuing new documents, clearly marked up as corrective, and with all the necessary cross-referencing to match the paperwork up. (If Laura uses accounting software, correcting previoously issued and paid invoices is likely to be impossible. That is for a reason. If she has an accountant, then this would probably be flagged.


Fiona Grace Peterson
 
Christopher Schröder
Christopher Schröder
United Kingdom
Member (2011)
Swedish to English
+ ...
? Mar 17, 2021

Nikki Scott-Despaigne wrote:

From a contractual point of view, if both parties (translator and agent) have complied with what was agreed, a problem on pricing and/or calculation methods arises, then that does not enable the agent to go into reverse mode. If the terms and conditions provide for this type of thing where a clear error has occurred, then the contract should also provide for how this is to be corrected in terms of procedure. Whether that is the case or not, if things do ever need to be corrected, that cannot involve modifying the paperwork after the fact. That is almost always likely to be illegal. There is a difference! Legal corrective measures are likely to involve issuing new documents, clearly marked up as corrective, and with all the necessary cross-referencing to match the paperwork up. (If Laura uses accounting software, correcting previoously issued and paid invoices is likely to be impossible. That is for a reason. If she has an accountant, then this would probably be flagged.

Nothing a credit note could not solve🤷‍♂️


Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Mervyn Henderson (X)
 
matt robinson
matt robinson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 18:38
Member (2010)
Spanish to English
Someone should have said something Mar 17, 2021

The way forward now is up to you and depends mainly on how much you can get away with, without losing the client. You say the client was a good client, but I don't feel that there was much beyond "here's a project... here's the money".
If I had been in your situation regarding a client I considered a "good" client (and with others, as I only deal with clients that are potentially "good") and faced with a document containing a large number of 100% matches which could only have originated fr
... See more
The way forward now is up to you and depends mainly on how much you can get away with, without losing the client. You say the client was a good client, but I don't feel that there was much beyond "here's a project... here's the money".
If I had been in your situation regarding a client I considered a "good" client (and with others, as I only deal with clients that are potentially "good") and faced with a document containing a large number of 100% matches which could only have originated from the same end client, then I would have reported it to the agency. Although you have no responsibility towards the end client in legal terms, you might want to do what you can to make that relationship (between agency and end client) easier. At that point, before doing the work, the worst that can happen is the size of the job is reduced or the job is cancelled. On the other hand, the business relationship (between you and the agency; the only one that is important from your point of view) remains intact and mutual trust increases. It is that mutual trust which I would cite when describing clients as "good", and that mutual trust which, in the event of some problem or dispute, enables a solution to be found.


[Edited at 2021-03-17 11:36 GMT]
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Sheila Wilson
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
 
Kay-Viktor Stegemann
Kay-Viktor Stegemann
Germany
Local time: 18:38
English to German
In memoriam
Saying no has its rewards Mar 17, 2021

Of course we do not know the situation between you and the agency, but sometimes it pays if you do not yield to their demands. If there is no legal or contractual leverage they have, you have in fact no reason for a compromise. By saying no, you show the agency that you are in a strong position and not dependent on them. That might even earn you some respect and they might not try again to walk over you. Being confident and showing it can even increase your status.

Of course, all th
... See more
Of course we do not know the situation between you and the agency, but sometimes it pays if you do not yield to their demands. If there is no legal or contractual leverage they have, you have in fact no reason for a compromise. By saying no, you show the agency that you are in a strong position and not dependent on them. That might even earn you some respect and they might not try again to walk over you. Being confident and showing it can even increase your status.

Of course, all this is futile if you in fact are dependent on them, something that should be avoided for many reasons.
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Adieu
Christopher Schröder
Matthias Brombach
Mervyn Henderson (X)
ahartje
Peter Shortall
 
Sanjin Grandić
Sanjin Grandić  Identity Verified
Croatia
Local time: 18:38
Member (2020)
French to Croatian
+ ...
"We do not have specific agreements around reps" Apr 5, 2021

How can they take any action against you if, as you say: " We do not have specific agreements around reps?"

This is a complete failure of the agency's internal quality control on multiple levels.

You can be sure that the end-client asked the agency how this could have happened in the first place.

Who do you think the agency is going to blame for this situation? Themselves?

I am afraid that whatever you do, your relationship with this agency (cl
... See more
How can they take any action against you if, as you say: " We do not have specific agreements around reps?"

This is a complete failure of the agency's internal quality control on multiple levels.

You can be sure that the end-client asked the agency how this could have happened in the first place.

Who do you think the agency is going to blame for this situation? Themselves?

I am afraid that whatever you do, your relationship with this agency (client) is going to be tainted for good.
If you pay them back what they ask for, you are implicitly admitting that this is somehow your fault and not the failure of the agency's control process.

Regards,

Sanjin
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