Pages in topic:   < [1 2 3] >
Need your help about this project from a client! I'm waiting onlie!
Thread poster: Serena Li
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 11:30
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Do you actually know who the client is? Apr 11, 2019

Serena Li wrote:
I am contacted by a client via proz.com to translate a document ( about 11000 words, 44 pages, in word docx). She has emailed the whole articles and deadline is one month. She will pay a cashier check or bank certified check after the translation done. I just start to jump into the translation field and this is the first job i got. I'm a little worried about the payment. How do you confirm the client will pay after the traslation done, especially the client is not translation company? We haven't talked about the price for the whole translation. I'd like to seek advice here about your opinion.

Did you ask yourself why she chose you? I'm not saying you can't do the job perfectly well; I'm just questioning her motives. I looked at your profile and everything about it screams "absolute beginner", so why contact you out of the blue? What happened about rate negotiations - did she just accept your rate with no questions asked? Do you have her full name and postal address, and her company details presuming this is a B2B transaction? Did those details check out?

I've been in business for a long time now, increasingly dealing with clients who are geographically far from me, and have never been scammed (touching wood ). I never ask for any advance payment from B2B clients unless the job is very large, although I try to always get at least 50% up front from private individuals (I say "try" because I have overlooked that a few times and had to wait with crossed fingers). But then I always manage the risks by checking out new clients thoroughly. If the first job is a very small one the checks might be less thorough, but in that case I'd expect to see the colour of their money before accepting a second job.

You need to be particularly thorough, Serena, because you haven't yet developed a "nose" for sniffing out potentially poor clients, let alone the downright scammers. Please check out the Scam Centre and the Risk Management Wiki here on ProZ.com -- your only protection against being scammed is being diligent. And if you haven't got all the details about your present client and/or you haven't got all the details of the job agreed in writing (rate, volume and payment terms as a minimum), pause and rewind. Bear in mind that if you can't send an invoice identifying your client precisely, you'll have absolutely no way to pressure your client to pay it. No court or debt recovery company would support you. It's possible that this client is as much a beginner in the business of translation as you are, and means you no ill-will; but you need to be more sure about that


Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
IrinaN
Yvonne Gallagher
 
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Nikki Scott-Despaigne  Identity Verified
Local time: 12:30
French to English
Smells of a scam Apr 11, 2019

This job offer has many of the classic signs of a scam.

Serena Li wrote:
I am contacted by a client via proz.com to translate a document...


Being contacted via Proz by someone who is not a member is not sufficient as a single sign, but combined with other elements, it does look suspicious. Here are some of the other signs.

Serena Li wrote:
... ( about 11000 words, 44 pages, in word docx).
... I just start to jump into the translation field and this is the first job i got.


You say that this is your first translation job ever. When an unknown client contacts you for the first time, they will want some indication of your experience. They will also want to test your ability with a small translations to start with. 11 000 words is not a small volume. It is a surprising volume for a first job with a new client who has not come to your through recommendation; it is very unusual for a first job ever.

Serena Li wrote:

... She will pay a cashier check or bank certified check after the translation done.
... I'm a little worried about the payment. How do you confirm the client will pay after the traslation done, especially the client is not translation company? We haven't talked about the price for the whole translation. ...


Payment terms have to be clear before you start any job. You and your client must know exactly :
- how much you will be paid (on what basis, for example, amount per word)
- how you will be paid (cheque, bank transfer)
- when you will be paid

Check everything. Everything must be clear. This does not seem to be the case.

On the first point, for 11 000 words, you should check that the original document does contain the number of words the client has indicated. Then you decide the basis for charge (rate, fixed-price). You submit a quote to the client who accepts or refuses your quote. Alternatively, the client can send a purchase order setting out the amount they are willing to pay (rate per word, or fixed price) for the translation. In this case, you accept or refuse the client's offer.
If the client has not provided a purchase order with rate and/or amount, or if you have not presented the client with a quote, then your contract is unclear and risky.

On the second point, the client says you will be paid by cheque. Whether by a cashier's cheque or by a banker's cheque, remember that either can be falsified. There is a classic scam with large volume jobs from unknown/new clients: the overpayment scam. The "client" sends a cheque for more than the agreed amount, instructs the translator (or other professional) to put the oversize cheque onto their account anyway but to send a cheque back to them for the difference. What happens next will surprise no-one. Your client pays your cheque into his account but the client's cheque is rejected/unpaid, etc. (no funds on account, false cheque, stolen cheque, whatever). Some scammers manage to do the same thing but with fake bank transfers.

On the third point, when will you be paid. This needs to be absolutely clear to both parties. On large jobs with unknown client, ask for partial payment before sending them anything. I generally ask for 30% from a new client if the job is quite large. I would certainly ask for 30% deposit for a 11 000-word job from an unknown client. An honest client might grumble at your request, but if they are honest, they will understand and will agree to some sort of partial payment in advance.

General comments and suggestions.

Theoretically, you can never be sure that a client will pay. It comes down to fundamental trust. You say "especially the client is not translation company". Translations companies are just like other companies; both can go bankrupt or pay really late. The fact that the client is not a translation company makes no difference whatsoever.

It is suspect that you and the client have not agreed on how much you will be paid. It is not good sense from a business point of view.

You are just starting as a professional translator. This is your first job ever. The job in question is quite a large job. The client does not know you. Why has the client contacted you? Would you contact a translator in this way for a job of this type? What checks has the client carried out about your ability and experience to do a good job of the translation in question? What checks would you caarry out? In short, would you behave this way if you were the client and genuinely intending to pay? I suspect not. Trust your instinct. Carry out checks on the client (name, business registration, address, contact name, telephone number) and cross-check.

Also check the text. I the source text available online? Is a target language version available online? Is the text complete? Does it end mid-sentence, mid-paragraph? If so, then point this out to the client by e-mail, or even by calling the telephone number you have. This way you can see if their number checks out and have a genuine reason to contact them. Anything odd about the text should be checked anyway.

The situation you describe has the makings of your being set-up for an overpayment: you are new to the business, fairly large job for a first job with a new client, client not coming to you via recommendation, etc. It is a combination of these factors which has made you post on here, I imagine. Trust your instinct and make sure you carry out the various checks and if you have any doubt, refuse the job. If the client is genuine, they will make efforts to settle any concerns and be able to prove what they say. Some clients are sloppy in their business practices. Most good clients are well-organized.

At worst, if it is a scam, you will lose all the time it takes you to translate the 11 000 words and also possibly payment you may be asked to make in the event of an overpayment. If you do receive an overpayment, cease work immediately and do not expect the cheque to clear.


Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
 
Lincoln Hui
Lincoln Hui  Identity Verified
Hong Kong
Local time: 19:30
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
Cashier's check Apr 11, 2019

The only time I've ever seen the words "cashier's check" used in a non-scam context was when I bought a car from a dealership. And they obviously verified my driver's license and insurance and whatnot.

There is zero reason for a legitimate customer to mention the word "cashier's" if they intend to pay by check. The ONLY reason someone would offer to pay using cashier's check is to trick gullible people into thinking that they're being paid with something that seems reliable.

... See more
The only time I've ever seen the words "cashier's check" used in a non-scam context was when I bought a car from a dealership. And they obviously verified my driver's license and insurance and whatnot.

There is zero reason for a legitimate customer to mention the word "cashier's" if they intend to pay by check. The ONLY reason someone would offer to pay using cashier's check is to trick gullible people into thinking that they're being paid with something that seems reliable.

[Edited at 2019-04-11 12:55 GMT]
Collapse


Thomas T. Frost
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
 
IrinaN
IrinaN
United States
Local time: 06:30
English to Russian
+ ...
At a risk of sounding like a parrot Apr 11, 2019

Serena registered in April 2019...
A loose "self-quote" from my previous post: "Scammers hunt those who'd just registered".


Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
 
Tansy Tazewell
Tansy Tazewell  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 12:30
Member (2008)
German to English
Phone? Apr 11, 2019

If I were in your position and concerned about a new customer's intentions, I'd simply pick up the phone and have a chat with them. I assume your customer has provided contact details? If not, that could be a warning sign. A real conversation should give you a feeling about whether the customer is legit or not.

 
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Nikki Scott-Despaigne  Identity Verified
Local time: 12:30
French to English
Newbie targets Apr 11, 2019

IrinaN wrote:

Serena registered in April 2019...
A loose "self-quote" from my previous post: "Scammers hunt those who'd just registered".


I understand that the same is true of credit cards which are most vulnerable to "attack" in the first few days of their having been issued.


 
Thomas T. Frost
Thomas T. Frost  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 11:30
Danish to English
+ ...
Phone Apr 11, 2019

Tansy wrote:

If I were in your position and concerned about a new customer's intentions, I'd simply pick up the phone and have a chat with them. I assume your customer has provided contact details? If not, that could be a warning sign. A real conversation should give you a feeling about whether the customer is legit or not.


The only time I've been scammed, the scammer actually called me and was very convincing. There was not the slightest sign that anything was wrong, and payment came through PayPal a few minutes later. The service was delivered, and ten days later PayPal made a chargeback. I suppose the payment had been made with a stolen credit card number. I never got an explanation.


 
IrinaN
IrinaN
United States
Local time: 06:30
English to Russian
+ ...
How about a truly drastic measure Apr 11, 2019

Every second post is about scams now. Proz is becoming a dangerous place to join.

Here is one suggestion - stall Proz registration procedure somewhere in the middle with an access to the Scam Centre only with no way around, and make sure it re-enables only after the newbies actually go there, get hit with humongous CAUTION AND WARNING! heading in bold and font size 40 and, maybe and hopefully, read something. After they confirm, let them finish registration.

My faith i
... See more
Every second post is about scams now. Proz is becoming a dangerous place to join.

Here is one suggestion - stall Proz registration procedure somewhere in the middle with an access to the Scam Centre only with no way around, and make sure it re-enables only after the newbies actually go there, get hit with humongous CAUTION AND WARNING! heading in bold and font size 40 and, maybe and hopefully, read something. After they confirm, let them finish registration.

My faith in human brain power is getting severely undermined but I still would like to a) help, and b) protect my own brain from a short after reading this on a daily basis.
Collapse


Mirko Mainardi
 
Lincoln Hui
Lincoln Hui  Identity Verified
Hong Kong
Local time: 19:30
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
[blank post] Apr 11, 2019

Please delete - somehow pressed Send button before I finished writing.

[Edited at 2019-04-11 14:50 GMT]


 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 11:30
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
A cautionary tale indeed Apr 11, 2019

Thomas T. Frost wrote:
The only time I've been scammed, the scammer actually called me and was very convincing. There was not the slightest sign that anything was wrong, and payment came through PayPal a few minutes later. The service was delivered, and ten days later PayPal made a chargeback. I suppose the payment had been made with a stolen credit card number. I never got an explanation.

These people used to be called confidence tricksters, or conmen for short (although they weren't all men, of course ). One of them landed a job as headmaster of my primary school back in the early '60s. The police discovered that one of his many previous jobs -- I kid you not -- was as a brain surgeon! These people can sound VERY convincing. I don't know quite how these mass-market scams work at the scammer's end -- and many are totally unconvincing, of course -- but I'm sure we need to use every defensive measure we've got available to us in order to be sure to avoid them.

IrinaN wrote:

Every second post is about scams now. Proz is becoming a dangerous place to join.

Whoa! How come? Unless you want to work only with clients located around the corner from your home/office, you're going to have to get your name out there. The beauty of places like ProZ.com is that -- far from being dangerous -- they enable us to promote ourselves while keeping private details private. If you don't publish your email address, all potential clients can do is contact you through your profile. You then have their email address, but they have no idea of yours unless or until you reply.

Also, the fact that we're discussing it so much must be bringing attention to the problem. We should all learn, not panic. I do hope that ProZ.com staff are considering ways of alerting new posters to the dangers, but they aren't our parents or the police and we're all consenting adults here.


Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Vera Schoen
 
Kevin Fulton
Kevin Fulton  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:30
German to English
Defrauded by people I've met Apr 11, 2019

Sheila Wilson wrote:

[Unless you want to work only with clients located around the corner from your home/office, you're going to have to get your name out there.


I've been defrauded twice, and I met the customer in person both times. In one case, the company went bankrupt 2 months after I delivered the translation, and there was no way I, as an unsecured creditor, could recover my damages.

In the other case, a private person contacted me to translate a lease "for a friend". Two weeks after delivering I tried to contact the individual regarding promised payment. It turned out he was planning to move to Germany and had already left town.


Colleen Roach, PhD
 
IrinaN
IrinaN
United States
Local time: 06:30
English to Russian
+ ...
Of course Apr 11, 2019

Sheila Wilson wrote:

we're all consenting adults here.


and "Your mother does not work here:-)."

Hi Sheila,

On the one hand, I couldn't agree more, and just like all the colleagues here I regard your posts as most respected and justified but I was not talking about "us, tough old cookies", or the danger of staying with Proz in general.

On the other hand, at least 5 people who registered in 2019 came up with the new scam posts, or added to it, within a week or so. Everything I've said relates exclusively to the newbies. The whole thing is getting overwhelming and, willingly or unwillingly, the victims feed and encourage those irritating scammers. The endless scam posts are not so helpful to the Proz image either.


Mirko Mainardi
 
Lincoln Hui
Lincoln Hui  Identity Verified
Hong Kong
Local time: 19:30
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
A little common sense? Apr 11, 2019

IrinaN wrote:

Every second post is about scams now. Proz is becoming a dangerous place to join.

Here is one suggestion - stall Proz registration procedure somewhere in the middle with an access to the Scam Centre only with no way around, and make sure it re-enables only after the newbies actually go there, get hit with humongous CAUTION AND WARNING! heading in bold and font size 40 and, maybe and hopefully, read something. After they confirm, let them finish registration.

My faith in human brain power is getting severely undermined but I still would like to a) help, and b) protect my own brain from a short after reading this on a daily basis.

It would certainly do wonders for the site's professional image. It would serve to put up a sign in big red letters for scammers that says, "ATTENTION: GULLIBLE PEOPLE HERE". It is also an absolute certainty that it will go unread, just like EULAs and T&Cs. Did you read ProZ's terms of service when you signed up? I think not. People who actually take time to read these things are not people who will fall for these scams easily in the first place.

At the risk of blaming the victim, at some point, people do have to take responsibility for their own well-being. We are all at risk of having a client disappear on us with unpaid bills, and you can only go so far to mitigate that without compromising legitimate business. But the majority of true scams are run-of-the-mill types that can easily be avoided with a little application of common sense, and there's only so much you can tell people not to put their finger or thingy in the food grinder while it's running.

By the time I was 15 I knew everything I needed to know about job-hunting scams. This information was widely available, and it would be incredibly hard to get through childhood without seeing it in the newspapers, at school, on billboards in one's neighborhood. If anything, one was inclined to be overly suspicious; the early 2000s was the golden era of scaremonger chain emails, after all. The few scams that have popped up on the board lately - and remember, it's less than a handful of successful scams out of thousands of users and hundreds of new users - are essentially the most common kind of Craigslist, Yahoo, Nigerian and job scams that are widely known. I get an average of $20M USD in inheritance in my mail box every month.

If anything, I think this says something about the demographics of people who sign up on ProZ. There are a lot of amateurs, wannabes, who sign up on the site with very little knowledge or experience about anything, drawn by vague promise of an easy living. Some are fresh out of school but have not prepared themselves to leave it, some have been around for a while and allowed the years to go to waste. Of this group, some make it over the hump and evolve into true professionals. Others fall by the wayside, and the differentiating factor is inevitably whether they have the mindset to survive and succeed. The ability to apply common sense and basic information gathering skills are only the barest minimum of such a mindset. Overpayment scams are pretty much the most basic test of your business acumen; if you can't get past this, how will you survive everything else that you encounter in your job? There are always people talking about how much they feel threatened by amateurism, bottom-feeders, etc...well, here's one way to filter out people who aren't prepared to make a living.

I would suggest making scam center notifications available to non-members, and make it opt-out rather than opt-in (if it isn't already). If someone won't read something that arrives in their inbox pretty much every week, no one can help them.

[Edited at 2019-04-11 15:17 GMT]


Christopher Schröder
 
Kay Denney
Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 12:30
French to English
faith in humanity Apr 11, 2019

IrinaN wrote:

My faith in human brain power is getting severely undermined but I still would like to a) help, and b) protect my own brain from a short after reading this on a daily basis.


I would have said that the fact that newbies are posting about scams actually means that they are aware of the possibility of being scammed and are trying to make sure it won't happen. Serena felt something was amiss and came to ask about it. If she has read all the answers she now knows a lot about scam prevention.

I first signed up here ages ago when I first contemplated free-lancing. I lurked here and learned a lot, and left my profile pretty bare. I don't remember any scam attempts, but I would have simply ignored or turned down any requests since I hadn't even set up my business.


Sheila Wilson
Abby Harrison
Vera Schoen
 
IrinaN
IrinaN
United States
Local time: 06:30
English to Russian
+ ...
Dear Lincoln Apr 11, 2019

Lincoln Hui wrote:

Did you read ProZ's terms of service when you signed up? I think not.


Me think that making unfounded public assumptions about unknown people is a sign of something other than a natural-born genius who needed no guidance since 15. Mirror, mirror...

BTW, I signed first in 2002 as a full and experienced member and quit rather shortly for reasons irrelevant at the moment, with a stack of around 4000 Kudoz points:-). Those were great times.


 
Pages in topic:   < [1 2 3] >


To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator:


You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request »

Need your help about this project from a client! I'm waiting onlie!







Wordfast Pro
Translation Memory Software for Any Platform

Exclusive discount for ProZ.com users! Save over 13% when purchasing Wordfast Pro through ProZ.com. Wordfast is the world's #1 provider of platform-independent Translation Memory software. Consistently ranked the most user-friendly and highest value

Buy now! »
CafeTran Espresso
You've never met a CAT tool this clever!

Translate faster & easier, using a sophisticated CAT tool built by a translator / developer. Accept jobs from clients who use Trados, MemoQ, Wordfast & major CAT tools. Download and start using CafeTran Espresso -- for free

Buy now! »