| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] | Spotlight on: the BEST RATE Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
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John Fossey 
Canada
Local time: 09:55
Member (2008)
French to English
+ ...
| Rates and the market | Dec 8, 2016 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote: John Fossey wrote:
My best rate is the rate I charge local end clients. It's about twice my average agency rate.
My best rate and my client's "best rate" are at opposite ends of the scale.
This morning I turned down an offer of proofreading at $0.01 per word (sight unseen).
Interestingly, I seem to be getting more, not less, work. While there are many cheapskate agencies, there still seems to be enough clients that really need quality. Thanks for your input John. I'd be interested in finding out if you currently rely more on established clients or on a steady flow of new and/or one-time clients and whether you see a trend for yourself away from agencies towards end clients. And how steady is your flow of new clients? Also, would you agree that the average rate posted at Proz.com's rate page for translations in your language direction (USD .12/word) is rather low but anything lower cannot really be seen as an adequate rate, no matter how "easy" the task. Would you agree that bottom feeders (agencies and translators) have an impact on the industry overall? [Edited at 2016-12-08 16:16 GMT]
I haven't had time to research it thoroughly, but I would say my workload is generally about 70% established clients and 30% new clients. Whenever I have a slow period, I use the time to contact new agencies, fill out their long forms, etc., which seems to pay off. I think the business of filling out agencies online forms has become pretty standard in recent years, and is a necessary evil to get on their databases.
I am also working on getting more end clients. I have contacted every translator in my province's professional translator's order and got quite a few references that way - mostly when in-house company translators were overloaded or needed a job done in the opposite direction for the language pair. I also advertise in local freelancer directories (not the global ones like Upwork, etc.), and these seem to bring in the occasional end client.
I do get quite a few new agency clients from my Proz.com profile - using the visitor IP address tracking feature I can see that they have been looking at my profile before contacting me.
As far as prices are concerned I think the average on Proz.com's rate page is about accurate for agencies (not end clients) - I quote a bit higher than that, around $0.15 or the equivalent in the client's currency, then about half the time have to negotiate down a bit.
If there's one thing I have noticed for years, it's that translators tend to blame the market, the economy, politics, etc., for the downward pressure on prices, while I believe the real problem is that most translators don't know how to market themselves. Having been in business all my life, I can say that every market has the same downward tendency and always has. It's a feature of free markets.
I think "bottom-feeders" only have an effect on translators to the extent that they allow them to. In other fields of business it's the same thing. Anyone in business, including translators, has to differentiate themselves in some way, then they are not really in the same market space as the bottom-feeders. So I have certain specialties, in addition to my language pair, which mean that some of my clients will wait until I am free to do their job, rather than just giving it to someone else when I am busy. The "bottom-feeders" can't touch the quality or specialties that professionals can offer.
[Edited at 2016-12-08 18:14 GMT]
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 09:55
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER | What to do about cheap job board demands? | Dec 9, 2016 |
Thank you for your input John. Especially for some pointers concerning advertising.
It's great that you are in the situation you are describing. Specialties are important, but overall quality is a must in any specialty and should help to establish oneself and keep going strong. What I don't get is that the job board realm here and at other sites seems to be completely oblivious to what you are preaching. It's like a parallel universe. You state that bottom feeders can influence profession... See more Thank you for your input John. Especially for some pointers concerning advertising.
It's great that you are in the situation you are describing. Specialties are important, but overall quality is a must in any specialty and should help to establish oneself and keep going strong. What I don't get is that the job board realm here and at other sites seems to be completely oblivious to what you are preaching. It's like a parallel universe. You state that bottom feeders can influence professionals only to the degree that they let themselves be influenced by them. But I have worked with and talked to a lot of colleagues and you wouldn't believe what they are willing to do for around 10 Cents. Those are often people who do know how to translate and do a good job. I think the real amateurs and fly-by-night artists (the ones "providing" poor quality) start at 5 cents and often work for even less even though I also regard anything between 5 and 9 Cents (from agencies) as inadequate remuneration, at least in our language pairs. There seem to be two parallel universes of low-rate translators and they seem to be converging.
I get the impression that a lot of translations do find their way to these cheap "helpers" and make it more difficult to keep clients or gain new clients, and you can be as perfect as you want. Maybe what Jose referred to as no-frill translations (or maybe a worse concept: they look like translations translations) seem to be having a field day. And that's where I see the danger for the future. I am still of the opinion that if this goes on uncontrolled, times for many serious career-minded translators will become more difficult. Often they already are. But the internet portals that could voluntarily make changes won't do it.
But I agree with you that professionals who know their value need to simply work twice or three times as hard to keep and get new clients, and new ways of reaching out to them are very important. But it becomes a real drag after a while.
So if I answer my own question about what to do about the cheap job board demands? We should probably ignore them and shift our attention to things we can influence. That means however also to be aware of the possible race to the bottom that can affect us all. Time to make real plans for the future.
What about direct contacts, for example via Proz.com? You say you get some (they must be acceptable ones I assume) via Proz.com. My experience over the last 6 months has been absolutely dismal. The only thing that kept me going is my established clients. But even there, I have experienced longer breaks. Hey, I think I'll write that book now that I always wanted to write.
[Edited at 2016-12-09 04:16 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | mariealpilles
France
Local time: 15:55
Member (2014)
English to French
+ ...
I definitely agree with Bernhard since "best rate" most of the time comes from India or Morocco and is tantamount to as low as possible, i.e. US$0.01. How can any Professional accept that? It is insulting. As for negociating the rate, I believe this is something which can be done once the translator has been selected - not on low rates offered, but on capacity and experience - but on a decent basis for the client and the translator. I am also in favour of this site banning such practices since i... See more I definitely agree with Bernhard since "best rate" most of the time comes from India or Morocco and is tantamount to as low as possible, i.e. US$0.01. How can any Professional accept that? It is insulting. As for negociating the rate, I believe this is something which can be done once the translator has been selected - not on low rates offered, but on capacity and experience - but on a decent basis for the client and the translator. I am also in favour of this site banning such practices since it is supposed to be for professionals. I am also shocked to read sometimes that agencies are looking for translators who have no experience. I agree that everyone has to start one day, but does the end client know? What does the end client pay for? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | It seems more like a ritual to me | Dec 9, 2016 |
Sometimes it seems to me that the "best rate" wording is coming mainly from cultures where haggling is simply part of everyday life. Like the stereotypic carpet dealer who offers you his "best price" from the start and still is prepared to reduce his price even further and will in the end make a profit anyway. I think that the best way to react here is simply to ignore the "best rate" request and make a serious offer, if the project seems interesting enough. Either it is really a bottom feeder, ... See more Sometimes it seems to me that the "best rate" wording is coming mainly from cultures where haggling is simply part of everyday life. Like the stereotypic carpet dealer who offers you his "best price" from the start and still is prepared to reduce his price even further and will in the end make a profit anyway. I think that the best way to react here is simply to ignore the "best rate" request and make a serious offer, if the project seems interesting enough. Either it is really a bottom feeder, in that case nothing will come of it no matter what you offer, or it is a serious company and it does need your services. If the company needs you, your negotiating position is strong enough to get a sufficient rate in the end. If the company does not need you, you can as well drop the matter and look elsewhere. It does indeed make no sense to join the race downwards.
It is obvious that all parties involved strive to maximize their profits, and it makes no sense to try to convince anyone to part with their profits. The message you have to convey is that quality means profit. Or, vice versa, that a lousy or even a sub-optimal translation means profits going downhill for the end client. Most translations are used to earn money for someone, and that is the incentive to commission a professional translator and to go for quality. ▲ Collapse
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| Where do cheap jobs go? | Dec 9, 2016 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Hi José,
I am sure it happens that way but I have a question for you: do you believe that all the cheap jobs posted on job boards go to amateurs that have no money problems, work for 9, 8, 7, 6, 5 and even less Cents/word, do a horrible job and the agency just has to blame these translators every time that happens? I think it's not very likely.
First, facts not in evidence. Low rates are not exclusive to "amateurs that have no money problems".
Other cases could be:- Freshly graduated translators who have no clue on what their work is worth in the global marketplace
- Ditto, who haven't yet figured out how to market their services
- Bilingual people - not translators - who got unemployed/retired on a low pension
- Ditto, "sesquilinguals" - I could be one in IT/FR/ES, and my translations from these shouldn't be worth much
- Translators devoid of any valuable subject specialization, capable of translating "simple stuff" only
- Naturally poor writers (in any language), lacking talent & skill
- Translators with low self-esteem, who assume their work is below market standards
- 'Desperados' who can't find good clients and, when they do, can't negotiate properly
- Gullible negotiators, who will accept any rate demanded, thinking that an agency with such a beautiful web site can't be wrong
- Amateurs having money problems, but who think that all that their output is worth is what they are being offered
- ... and the list could go on.
Secondly, agencies often don't have a safe way to ascertain the quality of what they are delivering. Their staff is unfamiliar with the target language, a spelling and grammar checker will indicate no issues, and yet a skilled translator will see "TRANSLATED!!!" in green neon letters flashing all over, because it sounds like the source text written with target language words.
The problem is... what's the harm? Who cares?
Yesterday I got a package of Brazilian chocolate. On the side, the ingredients list in PT/EN/ES. I can't judge the ES, however after a barely acceptable - yet acceptable - EN translation, the final phrase: "Do not contains gluten." (sic!)
However the translation of the WHQ CEO's message on a press-release or annual report of a multinational company must be flawless, as a double meaning might lead some stockholders to change their minds.
Like any other product or service, translation has many shades in terms of quality. I tried to cluster them generally under #4 in an article that I wrote a while ago. Though a BMW usually costs much more than a Tata Nano, both will usually take you from A to B. So why aren't all streets everywhere covered with Nanos? There must be a reason...
So best = lowest rate actually means "we don't care much about quality". A good reply would be: "If you need it so cheap, I - as a fully qualified and experienced translator - am not the vendor you are looking for." Of course, there is no point in requiring a Lexus to go buy groceries in India. However if that WHQ CEO above goes visiting their operations overseas, sending a Tata Nano to pick him up at the airport is likely to cause trouble
It is worth considering the "Conclusion" at the end of my same article above.
Likewise, the final point (below the table) in this article is also food for thought
| | | | Radian Yazynin
Local time: 16:55
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
Kay-Viktor Stegemann wrote:
I think that the best way to react here is simply to ignore the "best rate" request and make a serious offer, if the project seems interesting enough.
to ask for "the best service", where the best rate (for LSPs) is implied. Not serious "clients" ask for the best service at the best rate, so we have to clearly differentiate them.
[Edited at 2016-12-09 11:34 GMT]
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 09:55
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Best rate on best site? | Dec 9, 2016 |
Hi Kay-Viktor, thanks for your input.
Kay-Viktor Stegemann wrote:
Sometimes it seems to me that the "best rate" wording is coming mainly from cultures where haggling is simply part of everyday life.
Not my experience. Check the job board - they come from everywhere.
Also, even direct contacts via Proz.com often come with unrealistic demands. It's more a subculture of the translation services realm. But wait, they're doing business through here, ....
Kay-Viktor Stegemann wrote:
Like the stereotypic carpet dealer who offers you his "best price" from the start and still is prepared to reduce his price even further and will in the end make a profit anyway. I think that the best way to react here is simply to ignore the "best rate" request and make a serious offer, if the project seems interesting enough. Either it is really a bottom feeder, in that case nothing will come of it no matter what you offer, or it is a serious company ...
No serious company will ask for the "best rate."
Kay-Viktor Stegemann wrote:
It is obvious that all parties involved strive to maximize their profits, and it makes no sense to try to convince anyone to part with their profits. The message you have to convey is that quality means profit. Or, vice versa, that a lousy or even a sub-optimal translation means profits going downhill for the end client. Most translations are used to earn money for someone, and that is the incentive to commission a professional translator and to go for quality.
You're not going to convince any bottom feeders of anything. They'll keep going until they can't pay their translators and bills anymore and another one takes their place. Although it seems a lot of them have kept going for quite a while. What is bothersome to me is that they take away projects from professionals. And they are empowered.
[Edited at 2016-12-10 03:01 GMT]
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 09:55
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Again, what does it all mean for the real pro? | Dec 9, 2016 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
...
So best = lowest rate actually means "we don't care much about quality".
Even though this might apply to some of them, it's not what my usual experience is when I see the posts here or get contacted through the site. Lots of these agencies blatantly demand quality for peanuts and it keeps happening. Someone is helping them out, i.e. works for rock-bottom rates either doing a halfway decent job or better or the agencies get lucky most of the time and sell crappy translations to clients who haven't got a clue or simply need something that "looks like a translation." I don't want to turn a blind eye and hope that my efforts will get the jobs I need and the bottom-feeding circus doesn't come to my town.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
A good reply would be: "If you need it so cheap, I - as a fully qualified and experienced translator - am not the vendor you are looking for." Of course, there is no point in requiring a Lexus to go buy groceries in India. However if that WHQ CEO above goes visiting their operations overseas, sending a Tata Nano to pick him up at the airport is likely to cause trouble
They don't care about answers. They'll just laugh it off. Now, the question remains: does this have any impact on people like you or me? If it does, I think we better try to point it out and find solutions. But as I said before, anything short of a very special specialty or most excellent marketing tricks won't protect a professional translator from losing out on projects because of these outfits. And it won't stem the flood of these low-ballers. They will only stop if the rates reach rockiest rock bottom. But as long as people are willing to work for these very low rates, it might take a while. I am sure you agree there is some impact if you consider the traffic on this site.
So even though I agree with your stance on quality and the fact that there still are end clients that are looking for that and are ready to pay a fair price, the impression given to the public by sites featuring job posts is that you can in fact get it all for cheap and still call it all professional.
Consider this advert: This is a project for a client of us, very large and well-known company. Long-term engagement possible. Send us your CV and only your most competitive rate.
[Edited at 2016-12-10 03:03 GMT]
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Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 09:55
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER | The ugly truth | Dec 9, 2016 |
Slightly altered to protect the poster:
Company:
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Slogan: Great results through satisfied clients
E-mail at XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXs.comJob type: Translation, Immediate, Telecommuting
Languages: German>English
Specialization: Law
We desire two translators to become part of our team. Good legal experience required. If you are available please send your CV and best rates. Jobs available now. 2 jobs @ 6000 words
_______________... See more Slightly altered to protect the poster:
Company:
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Slogan: Great results through satisfied clients
E-mail at XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXs.comJob type: Translation, Immediate, Telecommuting
Languages: German>English
Specialization: Law
We desire two translators to become part of our team. Good legal experience required. If you are available please send your CV and best rates. Jobs available now. 2 jobs @ 6000 words
__________________________________________________
Excuse me, why do we have to read "best rate" everyday on this site? I feel like a big enabler.
[Edited at 2016-12-09 22:47 GMT]
PS: Blueboard rating: all 5s.
[Edited at 2016-12-09 23:30 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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