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Spotlight on: the BEST RATE
Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer
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Don't play the best-rate/price game Jun 4, 2015

Gabriele Demuth wrote:

How do sites like Elance and ODesk fit in with your theories?

Jobs go for next to nothing there, wouldn't these people be better off posting their jobs there and why don't they go there if quality isn't that important?

[Edited at 2015-05-07 09:07 GMT]


I am certain that many jobs posted on any portal go for next to nothing and will, as long as there are people accepting rock bottom prices, no matter which portal they use. And believe it or not, many of these posts ask for high quality. Check the job boards at different portals. There is a huge part (not as some will claim a tiny fraction of the industry) that works with the best rate scheme. That is the real problem for the industry and us professionals.

The problem is complex. The more bottom feeders there are, the more jobs that should be carried out by professionals are given to translators who will do an awful job or to translators who sell themselves for peanuts for reasons that range from trying to get any job to having no idea of what needs to be charged for professional work. In other words, rock bottom jobs that are supposed to be of good quality are jobs taken away from real professionals who depend on making a certain amount of money to run a successful business, providing excellent language services.

Even if translators who got sucked into that bottom-feeding circus eventually find out that that kind of exploitation is killing their business and that they can't live of it and they then try to either leave the market basement or simply leave the industry, there are plenty of newcomers taking their place. It's a pretty vicious cycle.

My hope is that a) more and more newcomers and others will understand how this business works, b) more and more poor quality jobs done for "best rates" will educate end-clients and agencies alike and change the game, but this can only happen if good people stop working for inadequate rates, that means don't go below a certain threshold rate/price, otherwise you are simply contributing to the problem and prolonging it. You enable unprofessional agencies and translators alike.

What this industry needs is cooperation/collaboration between the players (clients, agencies, translators) based on the understanding that it doesn't help anyone to simply undercut/underpay each other with unrealistic prices. For some interesting comments on the subject, google "cooperation between translators luigi" or "empowering translators luigi."

Bottom line: don't work for best = worst rates. You let yourself be exploited and hurt the industry.

Now, if all the professional translators stop working for inadequate rates (and please if you don't know what is low/inadequate, use common sense, do some math, do some research or at least go to Proz.com's translation rate page for starters), then this problem will indeed go away because only bad apples will be left to do bad jobs. And that will not work. I still hold that most clients are looking for high-quality when they want translations. Anything else is not likely to help them achieve their objectives.

One of the difficulties we face is that of the naive or inexperienced newcomer who doesn't mind getting into the business by working for incredibly low rates. Professional behavior by newcomers might be the linchpin here. And that's why it is important to talk about this problem. Newcomers need to understand that when they work for worst rates, they're sawing off the branch of the tree they're sitting on and help bring the whole tree down. Another important facet is educating the end-client.

To all readers: And before you tell me that YOUR best rate is a fair rate, please read this thread first. It's about posters' demands for best rates which means one thing and one thing only: the worst rate you can imagine as a translator, as low a price/rate as possible so that the agency will accept it. This is what you call competing on price only. Try out a fair rate and see if you get picked, and then come back here.

[Edited at 2015-06-04 14:44 GMT]


 
Charlie Bavington
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Beg to differ Jun 4, 2015

Angela Rimmer wrote:

My point was only that the phrase "best rate" is not evil.


Yeah, it is. Ask for a rate, and if you're not entirely sure you want to pay it, then by all means negotiate.

The trouble is, in my experience, that people asking for "best rates" always mean "low" and, more often than not, are the kind of outfit that just likes to churn work out, are not particularly responsive to queries, and so on. Actually, I'll adjust my opening stance. The phrase itself is not evil. The kind of people who tend to use it, however, if not exactly Pol Pot, are often not the kind of people one wishes to work with.

[Edited at 2015-06-04 16:15 GMT]


 
Marius Reika
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bottom feeders Jun 5, 2015

To me it seems that some people do not clearly understand that there are countries with low incomes and even a rate of, for e.g., 0.02 USD per word, will be considered as a good rate.

In a country where an income of 100 USD per month is considered normal, working at the aforesaid rate, doing 1500 words per day for 20 days one gets 600 bucks - six times the normal local wage. I am not too good in maths, so please c
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To me it seems that some people do not clearly understand that there are countries with low incomes and even a rate of, for e.g., 0.02 USD per word, will be considered as a good rate.

In a country where an income of 100 USD per month is considered normal, working at the aforesaid rate, doing 1500 words per day for 20 days one gets 600 bucks - six times the normal local wage. I am not too good in maths, so please correct me if I am wrong… You might need to deduct some tax, but it is still much better than a hundred.

So, imo, this discussion regarding best rates or awful rates will never end (neither will the so called low rates disappear) as far as there exist countries with low incomes, comparing to so called developed countries.
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Bernhard Sulzer
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We shouldn't defend low rates Jun 5, 2015

Marius Reika wrote:

To me it seems that some people do not clearly understand that there are countries with low incomes and even a rate of, for e.g., 0.02 USD per word, will be considered as a good rate.


I am sorry, but 0.02 USD isn't a good rate anywhere, it's a joke. My take.

Marius Reika wrote:
In a country where an income of 100 USD per month is considered normal, working at the aforesaid rate, doing 1500 words per day for 20 days one gets 600 bucks - six times the normal local wage. I am not too good in maths, so please correct me if I am wrong… You might need to deduct some tax, but it is still much better than a hundred.


This is about what your work is worth on a global market. And I doubt your math really adds up, even locally. And please take a look at ProZ.com's translation rate page and check the minimum rates suggested for your language combination. (And those rates are low anyway.)

Marius Reika wrote:
So, imo, this discussion regarding best rates or awful rates will never end (neither will the so called low rates disappear) as far as there exist countries with low incomes, comparing to so called developed countries.


Try to step out of the "local" box for a second.

Are you seriously defending posters asking for best rates? Because someone works in India and does English to German translations, I am also supposed to work for the same "best" rate demanded by a Indian company (not only Indian companies are playing this game, it happens everywhere)?
You've got to be kidding. And that guy really living in India who grew up in Germany only came to India to work for USD .02/word? And the person who supplies English to Lithuanian translations for a company in the US or in Lithuania or in India is supposed to do it for peanuts? Really? And Lithuania is in the EU, right? Where do you think those Indian jobs for English to German translations come from? From India?

Think about who is trying to dictate rates here and why it is important not to give in.

Again, I talked about the fact before that ours is a global industry and that any "translations jobs" as well as any problems happen globally, and any ideas and schemes are applied globally.
If someone asks for the best rate, and yes, they ask from any corner of the world these days, it means as low as possible, no matter where you live.

It doesn't matter where you live, demanding from you the "best rate" is a bad business proposal, it's simply unprofessional. My comments relate especially to how translators are being approached and what they then do. If they feel they have to out"bid" their competitors on price to get a job, if they think they live in a low-income country and therefore can't expect globally acceptable rates, then that's not a healthy attitude, not for the translator and not for the industry. It only supports unscrupulous people.

A translator should always quote a price that reflects his skills, the amount of time required to do an excellent job, and his/her professional and global business stance.

When all professional translators (and that includes newcomers) understand that they need to charge adequate and globally acceptable rates to run a professional global business and therefore not simply quote rock bottom prices to win a horribly underpaid project, then this problem will go away quickly. As I mentioned above, if only incompetent "word sellers" play the best rate game, it will be over even sooner.

If this "game" continues because people don't understand what a poster asks them to do for the best rate (= worst rate for the translator), I am still hopeful that there will be a complete split between real professionals and amateurs. It's already happening I believe. But educating colleagues can't hurt to speed up the process, right?





[Edited at 2015-06-05 03:46 GMT]


 
Bernhard Sulzer
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duplicate post Jun 5, 2015

duplicate post





[Edited at 2015-06-05 04:23 GMT]


 
Marius Reika
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low and high is relative Jun 5, 2015

I think I provided a very clear example, unfortunately, it seems that it was not clear enough.

So you think a 100 USD monthly wage is a joke? Sadly, there are many countries where this is a reality.

You doubt that my maths add up? (Well, I told you I am pretty bad at it…). So you also doubt that there exist countries with low incomes?

What is low for you, is high for somebody else – low here is totally relative. It depends on how much
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I think I provided a very clear example, unfortunately, it seems that it was not clear enough.

So you think a 100 USD monthly wage is a joke? Sadly, there are many countries where this is a reality.

You doubt that my maths add up? (Well, I told you I am pretty bad at it…). So you also doubt that there exist countries with low incomes?

What is low for you, is high for somebody else – low here is totally relative. It depends on how much one wants to earn and that defines what rate one will be charging. As a result, you will never get rid of people who charge low (comparing to yours) rates, as far as economies, which make this possible, exist.

The REAL PROBLEM arises when somebody offering 0.02 USD is charging the direct client e.g. 0.2 USD.

Regarding the phrasing "best rate", I am not too fond of such kind of requests, but there is no obligation to respond to them.
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Bernhard Sulzer
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Translators should be working for "global" rates Dec 7, 2016

Marius Reika wrote:

I think I provided a very clear example, unfortunately, it seems that it was not clear enough.

So you think a 100 USD monthly wage is a joke? Sadly, there are many countries where this is a reality.

You doubt that my maths add up? (Well, I told you I am pretty bad at it…). So you also doubt that there exist countries with low incomes?


No, I don't doubt it. Of course there are low-income countries, the EU hasn't changed much with regard to their low-income member states.

Marius Reika wrote:
What is low for you, is high for somebody else – low here is totally relative. It depends on how much one wants to earn and that defines what rate one will be charging. As a result, you will never get rid of people who charge low (comparing to yours) rates, as far as economies, which make this possible, exist.


You say "it depends on how much one wants to earn and that defines what rate one will be charging." Quite right. But I would tweak this statement as it must surely apply to many translators: "It depends on how little one wants to earn and that defines what low rate one will be charging." What I mean to say is that the sky should be the limit not the basement. I mean no disrespect, but I suggest we think as global players and take into account all aspects that impact our work and thus our lifelihoods. Just because incomes are smaller in low-income countries shouldn't mean you should get paid a pittance because of it or that a comparable low income should be your goal.

Please consider:
Do you work continuously, are guaranteed a steady income as in full-time employment or do you rely on a consistent flow of clients? How consistent is that flow? Who are usually the end clients that use your translations? Are they companies that work globally, are they poor companies from low-income countries that hardly can afford anything? Or are your translations sold to end clients that should be and are capable of paying an adequate price to the middle man agencies so that you can also earn a respectable "globally-adequate" fee? Where do those English to German or German to English translations go? To India? Who is the end client?
In a nutshell, translation is a global industry and cheap players bring down the industry.
Good translators should not get caught up in it.

Half a year ago, I was more positive with regard to what's going on in this industry. Not now. Many many cheap agencies are out to make a profit, but the only ones that really profit are the end clients who often get (so I surmise) good work from translators who work for peanuts through their middle-man agencies. It's the end clients who then want to pay less and less. You see how this can become a vicious cycle.

There are still good agencies and good clients. But if the spiral continues, I am sure the bubble will burst eventually. At the latest when the last good translator goes bankrupt because he/she continued to work for bottom rates or at least realizes that he /she is paid for unskilled labor but provides highly sophisticated work.

Marius Reika wrote:
The REAL PROBLEM arises when somebody offering 0.02 USD is charging the direct client e.g. 0.2 USD.


You are hinting at one major problem. The attempt by agencies to make a profit by "stealing" from both, the translator and the end client.

But my experience is that the agencies who pay fair rates are the ones also charging the end client more. They do it because they don't want to compete on low price and work with translators who are willing to work for a pittance. It's not a good business model and a very unsafe way to run a business. At least that's how I thought it used to be. But I think the cart is running loose.

With regard to your example and IMO, those agencies that pay translators $ 0.02/word are not likely to charge the end client 6, 7, 8 or more times as much. They are simply competing with the other low-bidding agencies and bid for new clients with ever-cheaper rates. But of course, they are still trying to make a profit even though they are staying in the rock bottom pool. The question is what that does to the professional translator's situation in the industry. It's not a good thing, never has been.

Here is the REAL PROBLEM as I see it: More and more end clients will want to pay (because they get those offers) less and less - thanks to competing bottom feeder agencies and willing translators - and the overall opportunities to earn a good living as a translator will continue to deteriorate. And as long as it continues unchecked like a cut-throat, untamed business jungle where no principles or rules apply (as on many job boards), it is of no help to any of us. It makes it harder and harder to find clients who are willing to pay a fair price.

Marius Reika wrote:
Regarding the phrasing "best rate", I am not too fond of such kind of requests, but there is no obligation to respond to them.


Yes, I agree we shouldn't work with such agencies; but I think we need to continue getting the word out for the sake of all our businesses.


Sorry to continue this thread but I wanted to give you an update on my opinion. There has been really no change to the better. Most job boards really are "best rate" = "worst rate" boards. Here are some keywords:

Best rate, best price, small project but more soon, low budget but huge volume, long-term opportunities possible etc. continue to be paired with: need excellent, experienced translator, certified, send CV, at least 3 years experience, translation degree, need it immediately, pay in 45 or 60 days, send invoice at the end of the month, looking for translators living in India or China.

Maybe I am too pessimistic, but alarm bells went off in my head again.


So what do you think today about its impact on our industry?


[Edited at 2016-12-07 03:55 GMT]


 
Radian Yazynin
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A phrase suitable for bidding Dec 7, 2016

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

Sorry to continue this thread but I wanted to give you an update on my opinion. There has been really no change to the better. Most job boards really are "best rate" = "worst rate" boards. Here are some keywords:

Best rate, best price, small project but more soon, low budget but huge volume, long-term opportunities possible


[Edited at 2016-12-07 03:55 GMT]


For "best rate", "small project but more soon" and similar requests: "Thanks for your trust. For the moment I am doing my best to not dissipate my energies thus gathering strength for best achievements in supporting your future large projects!"


 
José Henrique Lamensdorf
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In memoriam
Another concept that has been warped for translation Dec 7, 2016

Translation, as a deregulated and ubiquitous (your location usually makes no difference) profession, suffers from warped concepts. In most other endeavors, it's the vendor who sets the price. "I'll pay X for this job" is unheard of.

Likewise, a professional translator will have his or her translation rate set, based on a number of internal (ability, experience, specialties) and external (offer and demand in the marketplace) parameters.

Taking this assumption for granted
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Translation, as a deregulated and ubiquitous (your location usually makes no difference) profession, suffers from warped concepts. In most other endeavors, it's the vendor who sets the price. "I'll pay X for this job" is unheard of.

Likewise, a professional translator will have his or her translation rate set, based on a number of internal (ability, experience, specialties) and external (offer and demand in the marketplace) parameters.

Taking this assumption for granted, "best rate" would have to do with other costs peripheral to translation.

A possible analogy would be how fuel is sold to consumers in the USA. At "full service" gas stations, the gallon costs more, however a trained professional will check the oil, wash the windows, check tire pressure, top up the coolant if needed, etc. At similar establishments labeled as "self-service" a gallon of the same gas is cheaper, however not only the customer does all these chores, but he often has to pay 25¢ (?) to check the tire pressure himself!

So the "best rate" in translation would be the translator's rate without ANY of the possible frills. A few examples:
  • Just translate this PPT, never mind the cockeyed layout after translation - we'll fix it ourselves;
  • We'll provide you with a portable license of XXX (expensive CAT tool) for the duration of this project;
  • The text is about novel technology, no references on the web yet; leave neologisms/acronyms untranslated, just highlight them. our local folks will take care of this;
  • It's a DTP file; we'll provide you with a PDF for reference, and all text neatly extracted by our DTP vendor into a TXT file for you to translate;
  • We cover all money transfer fees on both sides; you'll receive word count x your best rate NET;
  • Interest rates in your country are way higher than in ours; we'll pay you COD;
  • ... and so on.


Hence there are many ways to "improve" the rate a translator will state to a prospect. It's better to have it settled in advance (i.e. what is left OUT of the assignment), than regretting later, e.g. that the 12K words text is provided as a scanned PDF from third-generation photocopies, and not a DOC.
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Radian Yazynin
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Let's give them what they really need Dec 7, 2016

"If you assign your job to me, you will receive a gift to your card - XX bucks" or "As a valued client, you will get XX promotion points that you can spend for the next project assigned to me". We are just forced to use this scheme whenever we read "best rates"

 
Bernhard Sulzer
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Let it be Dec 7, 2016

José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:

...
So the "best rate" in translation would be the translator's rate without ANY of the possible frills. A few examples:
  • Just translate this PPT, never mind the cockeyed layout after translation - we'll fix it ourselves;
  • We'll provide you with a portable license of XXX (expensive CAT tool) for the duration of this project;
  • The text is about novel technology, no references on the web yet; leave neologisms/acronyms untranslated, just highlight them. our local folks will take care of this;
  • It's a DTP file; we'll provide you with a PDF for reference, and all text neatly extracted by our DTP vendor into a TXT file for you to translate;
  • We cover all money transfer fees on both sides; you'll receive word count x your best rate NET;
  • Interest rates in your country are way higher than in ours; we'll pay you COD;
  • ... and so on.
....


That's not my experience. Most of these people want all the frills even though they demand the best rate. Yes I know you don't have to accept it. But many obviously keep doing it and surely bid with very low rates. I was concerned about the big picture and frankly, I got tired of reading "best rate/price" on almost every single job posting. It's absolutely ridiculous. And even if it's not stated, it's really implied because so many posts have stated it in the past.

I think it's time to stop worrying about it and just let it go. The race to the bottom will continue for many, but I don't intend to participate.







[Edited at 2016-12-07 21:37 GMT]


 
José Henrique Lamensdorf
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I've lost hope in machine translation Dec 7, 2016

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

The race to the bottom will continue for many, but I don't intend to participate.


I had great expectations for machine translation. Some people still advocate that it is the next solution.

My hope was that all bottom-feeders would revert to Google Translate, and grovelling "desperado" amateur translators would have their worst fears come true: being jobless in translation.

Now and then an end-client gets wise, has their translation checked by someone at their target-language-country subsidiary, and bluntly rejects it. The translation agency hires someone like me at regular rates to fix/salvage/redo it, in order to avoid losing that client for good.

All this is to say that I've seen - much more than once or twice - the kind of translation one gets for half my rate or less. Very honestly, overall, it's not any better than Google's, though the flaws differ in nature.

So why don't these smart operators try to make it stick with FREE GT's raw output, and save a bundle?

Mulling over this question, the only answer that came up to me was... BLAME!

The agency can tell the end-client that they selected - with all due diligence - a translator that was a native of and living in the target language country. Unfortunately, that person overrated his/her skills, so s/he should be the one to BLAME. What the agency won't tell the end-client is that they limited their rates to half or less of the market price.

I'm still hoping that these "best-price seekers" will eventually get greedier (if it's at all possible), realize that GT is free, and care even less about hiring a paid scapegoat. We - professionally skilled translators - will get our normal rates for redoing the jobs after they have been rejected by the smarter end-clients.


 
Bernhard Sulzer
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The downward spiral of translation rates and what to do about it or: why do you work for 5 Cents? Dec 8, 2016

José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:



All this is to say that I've seen - much more than once or twice - the kind of translation one gets for half my rate or less. Very honestly, overall, it's not any better than Google's, though the flaws differ in nature.

So why don't these smart operators try to make it stick with FREE GT's raw output, and save a bundle?

Mulling over this question, the only answer that came up to me was... BLAME!

The agency can tell the end-client that they selected - with all due diligence - a translator that was a native of and living in the target language country. Unfortunately, that person overrated his/her skills, so s/he should be the one to BLAME. What the agency won't tell the end-client is that they limited their rates to half or less of the market price.

I'm still hoping that these "best-price seekers" will eventually get greedier (if it's at all possible), realize that GT is free, and care even less about hiring a paid scapegoat. We - professionally skilled translators - will get our normal rates for redoing the jobs after they have been rejected by the smarter end-clients.


Hi José,

I am sure it happens that way but I have a question for you: do you believe that all the cheap jobs posted on job boards go to amateurs that have no money problems, work for 9, 8, 7, 6, 5 and even less Cents/word, do a horrible job and the agency just has to blame these translators every time that happens? I think it's not very likely.

A few day ago, I was approached by an agency for a legal translation, hadn't seen the files yet. I replied with my willingness and info (profile page, website, feedback). The project manager wrote back to me, and here's the most important sentence: "It always comes down to this: what do you charge?" After some due diligence on my part (blueboard), I already surmised the agency wasn't going to pay me 12 or more Cents/word, I told them my price range for agencies for this type of work is between 11 and 15 Cents, depending on various factors (formatting needs, volume, timeline, etc.). The project manager wrote me back that they could pay 8 Cents at the most, since they would "only" charge the end client 15 Cents. Keep in mind this means the agency would make almost as much as I would. I wrote back again, repeating that I would need to see the documents first (a professional agency would really know and apply this) and, just to push a little more, asked her if there was any chance of raising this to 9 or 10 Cents. No more reply. Looking at the agency's blueboard record, it was also clear that they would pay 45 - 60 days after you submit the work or later, because the newest entry said "late payer, no response to emails." The agency is from the UK, not India or China.

Another example is for legal translations, again a an agency. They sent me 57 pages (court case, contracts, some chemical and medical terminology), and I spent quite some time determining a good estimate for the source word count (about 17,000 words) and I quoted 17 Cents due to quite a lot of formatting required to match the original documents, but again expressing flexibility with the price. The person from the agency seemed very nice and interested. Was supposed to get the OK the next day. Next day comes and the project manager tells me that the client needs to add additional files and that he will get back to me when they arrived. Waited about 5 days, then asked for the status. No reply. Emailed him again the next day and he responded that the client had shelved the project. Mmmh, when were you going to tell me? Now granted, people put projects on hold or cancel them, but I think someone else out there might be getting the job, because the end client had a certain price ceiling in mind. In any case, I felt like a piece of sh.., because the agency didn't even bother contacting me. Of course, I don't know what the agency suggested, but if they added 100% to my price, the would be 0.34/word. They probably didn't, but who knows. I still sent another email, expressing my availability for other projects. No reply whatsoever. Wasted time.

My point is that agencies and end clients do not know the value of our work, but worse, many translators who work for low rates don't care about the value either. Because someone is doing the job and I don't get too many of these agencies coming back to me saying we need this fixed.

To me this means that the race to the bottom for translation prices is continuing. You might not be affected yet or as affected as other colleagues because you work in a smaller niche market, but don't hold your breath.
What to do about it? I continue to work for fair rates only. It's the only thing I am willing to do. If that becomes impossible, I will leave the industry. I am not going to use my brain and work day and night to make a pittance. The remuneration must be equivalent to the type of work you do. Period.

Here's another example to bolster my argument that it's always the worst rate ( = "best" rate) that wins on job boards:
Saw a job just now, posted just an hour ago. About 2000 words, from English into 3 languages (large language groups like German and French), posted by an agency from a lower-income country in the EU. There are already 69 applications altogether (well, 72 now). It'll be more like 200 before it's done. I am pretty sure about what kinds of rates the translators are quoting.

Now, if agencies or end clients who have access to these job sites but contact us directly expect the same kind of prices, it becomes futile to depend on clients coming from these sites unless you are willing to become a cheap translator and follow the crowd to the bottom.

Any thoughts? It seems I am not reaching many other concerned colleagues.


[Edited at 2016-12-08 16:01 GMT]


 
John Fossey
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Best rate Dec 8, 2016

My best rate is the rate I charge local end clients. It's about twice my average agency rate.

My best rate and my client's "best rate" are at opposite ends of the scale.

This morning I turned down an offer of proofreading at $0.01 per word (sight unseen).

Interestingly, I seem to be getting more, not less, work. While there are many cheapskate agencies, there still seems to be enough clients that really need quality.


 
Bernhard Sulzer
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Work flow and average rates Dec 8, 2016

John Fossey wrote:

My best rate is the rate I charge local end clients. It's about twice my average agency rate.

My best rate and my client's "best rate" are at opposite ends of the scale.

This morning I turned down an offer of proofreading at $0.01 per word (sight unseen).

Interestingly, I seem to be getting more, not less, work. While there are many cheapskate agencies, there still seems to be enough clients that really need quality.


Thanks for your input John.

I'd be interested in finding out if you currently rely more on established clients or on a steady flow of new and/or one-time clients and whether you see a trend for yourself away from agencies towards end clients.
And how steady is your flow of new clients?

Also, would you agree that the average rate posted at Proz.com's rate page for translations in your language direction (USD .12/word) is rather low but anything lower cannot really be seen as an adequate rate, no matter how "easy" the task.

Would you agree that bottom feeders (agencies and translators) have an impact on the industry overall?


[Edited at 2016-12-08 16:16 GMT]


 
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