| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Interpreters, translators call for warrants to regulate profession
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| | Faustine.Rou (X)
Local time: 05:37
English to French
| The translator's paradox | Dec 30, 2016 |
How many times have I heard translators complain that :
- People think anyone can be a translator
- Our profession is not recognized the way it should be
- Clients don't want to pay fair rates
- We are not respected...
And yet, our profession should not be regulated, thus allowing anyone to set up as a translator, thus lowering the current rates...
A while ago, in France, anyone could be a psychoanalyst. No need for diplomas, no need for studies.... See more How many times have I heard translators complain that :
- People think anyone can be a translator
- Our profession is not recognized the way it should be
- Clients don't want to pay fair rates
- We are not respected...
And yet, our profession should not be regulated, thus allowing anyone to set up as a translator, thus lowering the current rates...
A while ago, in France, anyone could be a psychoanalyst. No need for diplomas, no need for studies. Just a plaque that said "Psychoanalyst", and any charlatan could charge €100 an hour to sit down and say "mmh-mmh, yes, interesting, mmh-mmh".
Then psychoanalyst got fed up with the situation and demanded the profession was regulated. Doesn't mean there are no charlatans anymore, but their number have seriously decreased since a diploma or some sort of recognized qualification is now required to be able to set up as a psychoanalyst.
Just saying... ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Errors Type 1 and Type 2 | Dec 30, 2016 |
Error type 1 = false positive: A translator has one or more scholarly degrees in languages, but translates miserably.
Error type 2 = false negative = A translator has no specific education related to languages, but translates beautifully and accurately.
How can one "regulate" a profession where standards are - at their best - fickle?
I would be an error type 2. My degree is a BSc in Industrial Mechanical Engineering, yet I have been translating professionally for ... See more Error type 1 = false positive: A translator has one or more scholarly degrees in languages, but translates miserably.
Error type 2 = false negative = A translator has no specific education related to languages, but translates beautifully and accurately.
How can one "regulate" a profession where standards are - at their best - fickle?
I would be an error type 2. My degree is a BSc in Industrial Mechanical Engineering, yet I have been translating professionally for 40+ years. Of course, I spent the first ten years or so translating exclusively technical material, and later spread my footprint.
I took the Brazilian exam for sworn translators in 1999 without resorting to any special course for that, and passed. Okay, I am good enough for mostly legal/documental material. Yet I would be the first to state that any translation I attempted in technical medicine would not be worth the bytes it occupied on a cheap pen drive!
I could mention different cases involving colleagues of mine, as well as some that I wouldn't consider translators in spite of their claims, but I haven't got their authorization.
Anyway, to regulate the profession, it would be necessary to specify areas of human knowledge each translator is - or is not - licensed to work in.
As Socrates said, "We don't know what we don't know." Quite often a translator debuts in a previously unknown area, and is successful... or fails miserably! In the latter case, either they decide to learn about it, or learn that they shouldn't do it again.
What are regulated professions? Take physicians, surgeons, engineers, lawyers, for instance.
They have an endorsement from society - via accrediting organizations elected therefrom - that they are capable of doing what their license empowers them to do. IOW, their work is "safe" for society.
What's the danger of bad translation? A book won't sell more than a few copies, someone will spoil a product because the instructions defy comprehension, a company's image will be compromised because its web site mirrors ignorance or recklessness, and so on. It's just a matter of hiring the right person for that specific job, and compensate them as market practices justify.
However a formal document, a public record, if it is issued using information drawn from a flawed translation, may have its consequences. The wrong person may inherit some real estate, tear it down, and, when the mistake is corrected, it will be too late... just to quote ONE example. So it's pretty adequate to examine applicants before they are licensed by society to make sworn/certified translations for official purposes.
In all other cases, IMHO regulating the translation profession would be likely to incur in errors, either Type 1 or Type 2. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Good point, Faustine | Dec 30, 2016 |
Faustine Roux wrote:
The translator's paradox
How many times have I heard translators complain that :
- People think anyone can be a translator
- Our profession is not recognized the way it should be
- Clients don't want to pay fair rates
- We are not respected...
And yet, our profession should not be regulated, thus allowing anyone to set up as a translator, thus lowering the current rates...
A while ago, in France, anyone could be a psychoanalyst. No need for diplomas, no need for studies. Just a plaque that said "Psychoanalyst", and any charlatan could charge €100 an hour to sit down and say "mmh-mmh, yes, interesting, mmh-mmh".
Then psychoanalyst got fed up with the situation and demanded the profession was regulated. Doesn't mean there are no charlatans anymore, but their number have seriously decreased since a diploma or some sort of recognized qualification is now required to be able to set up as a psychoanalyst.
Just saying...
True! Some people don't make the connection.
| | | | | Chartered? State Authorized? Call it what you like, but I am in favour! | Dec 30, 2016 |
In the UK the CIoL http://www.ciol.org.uk/ and the ITI http://www.iti.org.uk/ have been campaigning for years for a scheme to charter professional linguists as so many other professions regulate their members - from Engineers to Accountants and Secretaries.
Here in Denmark there was, until last year, a two-tier system ... See more In the UK the CIoL http://www.ciol.org.uk/ and the ITI http://www.iti.org.uk/ have been campaigning for years for a scheme to charter professional linguists as so many other professions regulate their members - from Engineers to Accountants and Secretaries.
Here in Denmark there was, until last year, a two-tier system of State Authorized Translators with special qualifications and a protected title, Translatør, and all the others, Oversættere. The second category could be anyone, from those with different qualifications to none at all. I would have liked to see more of the qualified translators admitted as Translatører, and here experience, or subject expertise like José Henrique Lamensdorf's should definitely count as qualifications IMHO.
The International Federation of Translators http://www.fit-ift.org/translators-charter/ works internationally for the rights and recognition of professional translators.
It is a way of protecting clients who cannot understand both languages: if they hire an authorized professional translator, they can expect a quality translation and that ethical rules will be observed. That their confidential documents will be kept confidential, for a start.
Of course, there will always be a market for amateurs and volunteers. There ARE routine jobs that 'any bilingual' can do, with or without Google Translate or the like. However, translation should not be regarded as just a cottage industry and a means of earning pocket money.
The more demanding work needs to be done by professionals, and properly paid for. I don't think politicians should decide who qualifies - this is where the professional associations come in. Democratically appointed, qualified committees and trained employees, in short, who know what professional translation involves, and who ensure that standards are maintained. ▲ Collapse
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jyuan_us 
United States
Local time: 00:37
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Thank you for the insight | Dec 30, 2016 |
However I still feel the structure of "Interpreters, translators" weird. The title can be interpreted as "Hey Interpreters, the translators are calling for warrants to regulate profession", or even as this: "Hey interpreters, you know what, the translators are calling for warrants to regulate profession. What are you, the interpreter guys, waiting for?"
| | | | | "Headline Grammar" Mode | Dec 31, 2016 |
jyuan_us wrote: However I still feel the structure of "Interpreters, translators" weird. The title can be interpreted as "Hey Interpreters, the translators are calling for warrants to regulate profession", or even as this: "Hey interpreters, you know what, the translators are calling for warrants to regulate profession. What are you, the interpreter guys, waiting for?"
Jyuan,
This format looks normal to me. When you read the newspaper, your mind automatically goes into "headline grammar" mode, so you ignore the other possible meanings. This can, however, result in some funny/unintended headlines. I can't think of any examples at the moment, but I will look around and post again if I spot something.
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jyuan_us wrote:
I think the title of the article should be "Interpreters AND translators callING for warrants to regulate profession".
Don't you, our peers native in English, think so?
I'm curious about whether the structure of the sentence is correct or not. (Whether "warrant" is the right word to use here is irrelevant to my question.)
The "comma instead of and" thing is chiefly an American thing and still jars a bit in the UK, rather like New Year's, but the tense is OK
| | | | ph-b (X)
France
Local time: 06:37
English to French
+ ...
| Professional associations | Dec 31, 2016 |
Faustine Roux wrote:
How many times have I heard translators complain that (...)
And yet, our profession should not be regulated, thus allowing anyone to set up as a translator, thus lowering the current rates...
Christine Andersen wrote:
...However, translation should not be regarded as just a cottage industry and a means of earning pocket money.
The more demanding work needs to be done by professionals, and properly paid for. I don't think politicians should decide who qualifies - this is where the professional associations come in. Democratically appointed, qualified committees and trained employees, in short, who know what professional translation involves, and who ensure that standards are maintained.
Indeed, no need for government involvement – just national associations (and one per country should be enough) that share the same standards and an international organization like FIT-IFT to supervise them and to ensure coherence among them.
It seems to me that just like doctors, architects, lawyers or other professions, no one should be allowed to translate unless they belong to their national association.
Even if it means the end of unofficial and potentially misleading schemes such as ProZ.com’s ’Certified PRO Network’, I would welcome some degree of professionally-supervised regulation.
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 06:37
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Headline style | Dec 31, 2016 |
Amel Abdullah wrote:
When you read the newspaper, your mind automatically goes into "headline grammar" mode, so you ignore the other possible meanings.
Yes, and as was said, different countries/languages have different traditions. Even different newspapers within a single country may have different styles. If this was a Dutch newspaper, for example, the headline may have read "Interpreters, translators call warrants regulate profession". However, I do get the impression that these days online media typically use more words for headings, because screen space is dynamic whereas paper space is not.
What intrigues me more is the first line of the newspaper's subheading in Maltese English: Postgraduate students, faculty members says hurdle encountered during court hearing strikes sensitive chord. But perhaps there is no intrigue -- most of the sentences in this newspaper's writing only look English, until you actually read them.
[Edited at 2016-12-31 10:23 GMT]
| | | | | Meaning of "warrant" here | Jan 23, 2017 |
As averb, "to warrant" means "to provide a guarantee". Nothing to do with warrant for arrest. Some posters here may not be familiar with the meaning I have presented here; judging by some of the posts, others may be playing on it.
| | | | Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:37
Serbian to English
+ ...
| borderless, and therefore jurisdiction-less? | Feb 2, 2017 |
John Fossey wrote:
How on earth are you going to regulate this profession? Interpreters perhaps, because they have to be physically present in a particular location. But the translation profession is borderless, and therefore jurisdiction-less.
Really?
When the agency starts imposing out of nowhere all sorts of forms and registrations before paying, it's got nothing to do with the jurisdiction in which it is operating?
If translators are limited in the ways they can receive payments, it's got nothing to do with the jurisdiction in which they are living?
And even before that, just because they are not both in the same country, the contract between the translator and the client exists in some sort of legal vacuum - no laws whatsoever apply to it?
Time to land the hot air balloon on solid ground ...
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 00:37
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Language proficiency | Feb 3, 2017 |
I think that there should be an internationally accepted system of language proficiency certification.
For example, from 0 to 10 (SPANISH-5, ENGLISH-8, KOREAN-7...).
Certain professions could then require that a candidate have a certain level of certification. Example: You must have ENGLISH-3 to work at McDonald's, or you must have SPANISH-5 for a specific hospital job....
As an example, brokers of translation service providers may require their contractors... See more I think that there should be an internationally accepted system of language proficiency certification.
For example, from 0 to 10 (SPANISH-5, ENGLISH-8, KOREAN-7...).
Certain professions could then require that a candidate have a certain level of certification. Example: You must have ENGLISH-3 to work at McDonald's, or you must have SPANISH-5 for a specific hospital job....
As an example, brokers of translation service providers may require their contractors to have at least a LEVEL 9 in their target language and at least LEVEL 7 in their source language(s), etc., depending on their needs (and expectations).
Of course, high proficiency in the language(s) does not guarantee that you will make a good translator, but it's a start and a little less subjective than judging translation skills and since language certification has a broader application beyond just the translator/interpreter field, it would be more widely accepted and more economical to implement.
You can get a professional license, for example, by passing a test, but if you are not good at your job, you won't get repeat business.
[Edited at 2017-02-03 15:11 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Daryo wrote: John Fossey wrote:
How on earth are you going to regulate this profession? Interpreters perhaps, because they have to be physically present in a particular location. But the translation profession is borderless, and therefore jurisdiction-less. Really? When the agency starts imposing out of nowhere all sorts of forms and registrations before paying, it's got nothing to do with the jurisdiction in which it is operating? If translators are limited in the ways they can receive payments, it's got nothing to do with the jurisdiction in which they are living? And even before that, just because they are not both in the same country, the contract between the translator and the client exists in some sort of legal vacuum - no laws whatsoever apply to it? Time to land the hot air balloon on solid ground ...
Yes, this is the real problem to me with the idea of regulation. The client bases for doctors, lawyers, and other regulated professions tend to be far less international than for translators.
To my way of thinking, we don't need government regulation of the translation industry as much as we need governments to allow translators and other freelancers to set up organizations similar to those in more traditional industries. By this I mean allowing freelance groups to form unions, collectives for the purpose of negotiating insurance policies, etc. One of the (very) few things that I like about the Trump administration is that they are apparently considering allowing self-employed/small businesses to negotiate for group insurance rates in the same manner that large corporations do now. Seems like a slam-dunk to me, and would be immensely helpful to so many, especially if Obamacare really does go down the tube.
| | | | Harris Morgan
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:37
Member
German to English
| Self-regulate | Feb 8, 2017 |
I think some people are missing the point that there are already established methods of (private) regulation.
- Quality certifications: ISO 17100, ISO 9001, SAE J2450, etc.
- Professional association membership and qualifications
- Educational qualifications
- Public feedback from clients and points on ProZ and similar sites
- Test translations
- Sample work
- Work experience level
- Content of CV and other communication
- Professional reference... See more I think some people are missing the point that there are already established methods of (private) regulation.
- Quality certifications: ISO 17100, ISO 9001, SAE J2450, etc.
- Professional association membership and qualifications
- Educational qualifications
- Public feedback from clients and points on ProZ and similar sites
- Test translations
- Sample work
- Work experience level
- Content of CV and other communication
- Professional references
- Contracts which require accuracy and quality assurance
- The end user's ability to complain and/or cancel future business if a translation is not fit for purpose
All of those are market mechanisms clients can use to regulate their translation provider without having to pin their hopes on a one-time stamp of approval from a government functionary. If an outsourcer doesn't want to make those efforts, they'll either [1] still get a good enough product and be happy (good outcome), or [2] get an unusable product so have to hire a proven professional in the future (good outcome). I don't really see the problem there. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Clarification please | Feb 8, 2017 |
Faustine Roux wrote:
How many times have I heard translators complain that :
- People think anyone can be a translator
- Our profession is not recognized the way it should be
- Clients don't want to pay fair rates
- We are not respected...
And yet, our profession should not be regulated, thus allowing anyone to set up as a translator, thus lowering the current rates...
A while ago, in France, anyone could be a psychoanalyst. No need for diplomas, no need for studies. Just a plaque that said "Psychoanalyst", and any charlatan could charge €100 an hour to sit down and say "mmh-mmh, yes, interesting, mmh-mmh".
Then psychoanalyst got fed up with the situation and demanded the profession was regulated. Doesn't mean there are no charlatans anymore, but their number have seriously decreased since a diploma or some sort of recognized qualification is now required to be able to set up as a psychoanalyst.
Just saying...
Hello Faustine,
Your comment can be interpreted as being in favor of regulation to curb amateurs' access to this profession. Is that what you're proposing?
I believe (and others may disagree):
It won't be possible on a global level. That means job portals like this one won't feel any effect of any regulation. This is indeed a marketplace that's only "regulated" by the portal owners. Currently, cheap offers abound because they can be posted as rate ranges. Any professional knows it's nuts working for such rates. Just an observation. And yes, there is a warning mechanism (the 80% rule) in place. But still, the postings continue. It seems to work for those outsourcers (an opinion). And I am sure there are new waves of newbies coming in to pick up any slack.
So, what can one do? Only this: stand your ground and work with other professionals that you might attract through profile pages, social media contacts, your own independent website, and personal credentials and feedback from clients. If that doesn't work, choosing/seeking a different profession comes to mind.
[Edited at 2017-02-08 18:25 GMT]
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