| Pages sur ce sujet: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | | Utilisateur | Auteur du fil: Lisa Simpson, MCIL Should “native language” claims be verified? |
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Lisa Simpson, MCIL 
Royaume-Uni
Local time: 22:24
  Membre (2010)
portugais vers anglais
+ ...
AUTEUR DU FIL | | @ Balasubramaniam L. | Jun 27, 2012 |
Can you tell the difference between a Hindi native and non-native speaker? I suspect you can. That's all that this debate is about. Nothing more, nothing less.
[Edited at 2012-06-27 19:34 GMT]
| | | | LilianBNekipelo
États-Unis
Local time: 17:24
Membre (May 2013)
russe vers anglais
+ ...
| | I agree with a lot Belasubramian has said | Jun 27, 2012 |
I agree with a lot of things Belasubramiam has said. It is true, it takes much more for someone to be a good translator and writer than to just be a native speaker of particular language. Some people just have very outdated views what a native language is, and what it means to be really a good translator. I could ask some of the college freshman to do a short translation for you of a quite simple text, and you would faint what some of them would produce, although they were born in the Unites States. Some of those claims here have more to do with certain national pride rather than really linguistic competence. What one of you has described about the first generation immigrants and the whole progress, sounds more like a description of the 1920s immigration wave, or the potato famine, or something like that -- not contemporary immigration.
| | | | Kim Metzger
Mexique
Local time: 16:24
allemand vers anglais
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[Edited at 2012-06-27 22:37 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall
Royaume-Uni
Local time: 22:24
Membre (2011)
hébreu vers anglais
| | Just a few points to correct...... | Jun 27, 2012 |
I was the one describing immigration. I can only speak from experience and I wasn't around in the 1920s so........
Draw you own conclusions.
| it takes much more for someone to be a good translator and writer than to just be a native speaker of particular language |
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Do you see any of us disagreeing with that? Nope. That's because we don't. What we are saying is that being a native speaker is but one factor, albeit an important one for most contexts. (Exceptions have been discussed ad nauseum).
| Some people just have very outdated views what a native language is.. |
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To say the definition has "expanded" may be closer to the truth, the so-called 'outdated' definition hasn't ceased to be true. It's funny how the people who keep banging on about an outdated definition aren't rushing to give us a new one...
| I could ask some of the college freshman to do a short translation for you of a quite simple text, and you would faint what some of them would produce, although they were born in the Unites States. |
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What would this prove? Nothing. I could ask my sister to translate a simple text, but it wouldn't mean anything; I'm a translator, she isn't.
| Some of those claims here have more to do with certain national pride rather than really linguistic competence. |
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Hardly. Many of us aren't even from the same nation so....... draw your own conclusions.
[Edited at 2012-06-27 21:27 GMT]
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| | | | Ty Kendall
Royaume-Uni
Local time: 22:24
Membre (2011)
hébreu vers anglais
| | Bizarre comparisons | Jun 27, 2012 |
While I'm here, I really can't fathom the strange comparisons that keep being made as though they are some kind of "proof" that a native speaker isn't always better.
They go like this:
Would you prefer your translation done by a trained and educated non-native translator or the untrained and uneducated native speaker?
Ceteris paribus anyone?
| | | | Lisa Simpson, MCIL
Royaume-Uni
Local time: 22:24
Membre (2010)
portugais vers anglais
+ ...
AUTEUR DU FIL | | Beg to differ, with quite a bit actually... | Jun 27, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
It is true, it takes much more for someone to be a good translator and writer than to just be a native speaker of particular language.
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I don't recall anyone in the "native camp" making that claim.
I could ask some of the college freshman to do a short translation for you of a quite simple text, and you would faint what some of them would produce, although they were born in the Unites States.
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I think you'd have to show the translation to an English native speaker and let them be the judge of that.
Some of those claims here have more to do with certain national pride rather than really linguistic competence.
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Sorry, I don't understand what you mean. Which is the "certain national pride"? As far as I know there are English, Scottish, Irish and Americans (very possibly others, apologies if you've been missed out) in the English native speaker camp.
What one of you has described about the first generation immigrants and the whole progress, sounds more like a description of the 1920s immigration wave, or the potato famine, or something like that -- not contemporary immigration. |
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I hadn't commented on Ty's description sooner but on reading it I thought it was actually a brilliant and incisive summary. However, I'd be interested to hear your views on language acquisition by immigrant groups in Britain.
Nevertheless, this is all somewhat off-topic and doesn't actually address the issue of a need many of us feel to have bogus native language claims reigned in.
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| | | | Andy Watkinson
Espagne
Local time: 23:24
Membre
catalan vers anglais
+ ...
| | Put it this way | Jun 27, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
I agree with a lot of things Belasubramiam has said. It is true, it takes much more for someone to be a good translator and writer than to just be a native speaker of particular language. Some people just have very outdated views what a native language is, and what it means to be really a good translator. I could ask some of the college freshman to do a short translation for you of a quite simple text, and you would faint what some of them would produce, although they were born in the Unites States. Some of those claims here have more to do with certain national pride rather than really linguistic competence. What one of you has described about the first generation immigrants and the whole progress, sounds more like a description of the 1920s immigration wave, or the potato famine, or something like that -- not contemporary immigration. |
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Lilian,
A few questions:
I have read the entire thread and nobody has said that simply being a native speaker suffices to be a translator.
So, is it not a waste of time to discuss "non-arguments"?
And where did this warped idea of "national pride" come from?
In case nobody noticed, the topic of this entire thread is HONESTY, which may be an "outdated" notion for you and Balasubramaniam (who has publicly stated in this thread that "It's OK to lie; it's just marketing"; this attitude would not convince me as a potential outsourcer), but I believe a majority here have higher expectations.
The description of inter-generational language acquisition by Ty is textbook.
And last question: How can people offer 2 language pairs into English when they obviously lack the basics?
[Edited at 2012-06-27 23:49 GMT]
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| | | | Charlie Bavington
Local time: 22:24
français vers anglais
| | Geographical origin | Jun 27, 2012 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
Ty Kendall wrote:
Let me get this straight. It's ethical to lie as long as money is involved???????? Seriously? |
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Not only money, if any gain is involved.
Don't get on a moral high horse, it is not worth it.
The truth is, lying (as you call it), is an integral part of all marketing and advertising, and our profiles are nothing but marketing statements, just like product advertisements.
A lie artfully presented becomes a winning marketing ploy. |
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India is, presumably, a different kettle of fish, but over here we have a slightly different attitude, and "anything goes" is definitely not the way it works. There is the Advertising Standards Authority and the Trades Descriptions Act to name but two well known mechanisms preventing me claim whatever the hell I feel like in an advert.
More pertinently, I see a parallel here with geographical origin labelling. In essence, where the geographical origin of a product is held to be a key feature and a strong selling point, I'm not allowed to lie about it. I can't knock up sparking wine in my shed and call it Champagne, to pick the obvious example.
I would argue that to some of our customers, native language is indeed a key feature and strong selling point, and is not entirely bereft of geographical aspects to boot. Notwithstanding my previous remarks about not personally feeling overly threatened by liars (and only really being involved in this discussion in a last-gasp attempt to haul this website out of the gutter before I have to seriously consider if my own reputation is harmed by association), I do feel empathy with the Champagne producers in this regard, and if protection is good enough for them, it's good enough for me.
...... but in the end it is what they deliver that will get them the next project.
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Again (jn the sense I've said it more than once in this thread), I wouldn't want to restrict anyone's right to offer any service, any language pair they like - who knows what other resources are available to them? It's about lying about what the profile owner is personally capable of.
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| | | | Kim Metzger
Mexique
Local time: 16:24
allemand vers anglais
| | Dealing with clear-cut cases of deception | Jun 27, 2012 |
Michele Fauble wrote:
Robert Forstag wrote:
Quite right. From a practical point of view, the emphasis needs to be on identifying and removing the obvious cases of misrepresentation. These are, by definition, easy to identify.
It is possible to acknowledge, and live with, borderline and ambiguous cases, without recognition of their existence being used as an excuse to do nothing.
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Use the clear cases to arrive at a definition of native language, then use the definition to help clarify the borderline and ambiguous cases.
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Site rule 6: Misrepresentation and fraud are forbidden. It is possible to use ProZ.com without disclosing your name. However, impersonating others, using assumed identities, or otherwise attempting to deceive others to any degree will not be tolerated.
We've discussed all sorts of complications and exceptions when it comes to defining native language, but what most of us have in mind is the user who declares a language to be his or her native language when it clearly is not, for the purpose of securing work from outsourcers who stipulate a specific native language as a condition for employment. English happens to be the most frequently abused language. Why don't we deal with the clear-cut cases, first?
If any new system were introduced to enforce truthfulness when declaring one's native language, what would clearly constitute misrepresentation and fraud and what would constitute sufficient evidence of deception?
The typical fraudster was born, raised and educated in a country in which the target language (usually English) is not the mother tongue. In the Netherlands, Germany or China, for example.
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| | | | Marina M. Steinbach
États-Unis
Local time: 17:24
Membre
anglais vers allemand
+ ...
| | I beg your pardon? | Jun 28, 2012 |
Kim Metzger wrote:
The typical fraudster was born, raised and educated in a country in which the target language (usually English) is not the mother tongue. In the Netherlands, Germany or China, for example. |
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I beg your pardon? You are calling ProZ members from these countries fraudsters?
| | | | Ty Kendall
Royaume-Uni
Local time: 22:24
Membre (2011)
hébreu vers anglais
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Marina Steinbach wrote:
Kim Metzger wrote:
The typical fraudster was born, raised and educated in a country in which the target language (usually English) is not the mother tongue. In the Netherlands, Germany or China, for example. |
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I beg your pardon? You are calling ProZ members from these countries fraudsters? |
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He's saying that the problem arises from translators from countries where English is not the main language (i.e. nobody's mother tongue) , not from countries such as India, where English is a de facto official language (and therefore fuzzy cases*).
The countries he cites are merely examples of countries where English is not an official language. They also happen to be countries where a large number of bogus native language claims originate - this isn't slander - it's been acknowledged on this thread.
*I suspect (without being a telepath) that Kim was attempting to steer the discussion away from a separate debate about varieties of English, as that discussion doesn't belong here. Non-native English is not a variety of English in the same way that Indian English is, although many people would like to conflate the two for their own purposes.
It's also a bit disingenuous to insinuate that he meant all translators from these countries, this is clearly not so.
[Edited at 2012-06-28 07:33 GMT]
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| | | | hazmatgerman
Local time: 23:24
anglais vers allemand
| | Kim Metzger is not | Jun 28, 2012 |
Marina Steinbach wrote:
Kim Metzger wrote:
The typical fraudster was born, raised and educated in a country in which the target language (usually English) is not the mother tongue. In the Netherlands, Germany or China, for example. |
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I beg your pardon? You are calling ProZ members from these countries fraudsters? |
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calling me (or anybody else from these countries) a fraudster (I'm German, my English is pretty acceptable, my native tongue is German and I would not dream claiming English as native tongue). He is simply stating an observation, and one that I dare say is not unsustainable.
The point of this thread is: will something be done by site management to enforce the existing rule (quoted before) against fraudulent native language claims? Yes or no? So far, no convincing "Yes" has been heard from the addressee.
Added later: Two sentences of middling length written in German will show whether the writer is a non-native speaker of that language or not. The same goes for English, in my opinion. Thus, identification of fraudulent claims should not require years of deliberation as to "how".
hazmatgerman
[Edited at 2012-06-28 08:04 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-06-28 08:05 GMT]
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| | | | Samuel Murray
Pays-Bas
Local time: 23:24
Membre (2006)
anglais vers afrikaans
+ ...
| | Possible to verify "first language" with a proficiency test | Jun 28, 2012 |
writeaway wrote:
[Perhaps] the option should be given to list 'native proficiency'. And outsourcers should be given the option to click a 'native proficiency' button when they post jobs. |
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1. One thing very few people have mentioned here is what "native language" is in other languages. I'll wager that most non-English languages do not say "native language" but something else, like "mother language" or "first language".
A large part of the "native language" problem is a problem with the label itself. The first thing to do is to change the label "native language" into something that is consistent with the label used by other languages on ProZ.com. Since "mother language" is not quite politically correct, I would suggest "first language".
2. What writeaway writes seems like a good solution to the problem of verification. First language is impractical to verify because it is so hard to define it unanimously. Proficiency on the other hand is much easier to verify.
We're not saying that first language speakers don't make mistakes, but we can reasonably expect first language *translators* not to make any mistakes that are typical of second language or foreign language users.
3. That is very similar to what I've been suggesting for quite a while now, yes. The concept of "native language" (or first language) has two aspects, namely identity and proficiency. So then, split the concept into the two aspects:
- childhood first language
- current first language
After all, you can't test a person's childhood language using a proficiency test, but you can test his current language using a profiency test.
Clients who believe that you can't possibly be as good in any language as in your childhood language will have the option to select the first option, whereas clients who value verifiability can then select the second option.
[Edited at 2012-06-28 08:14 GMT]
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| | | | Phil Hand
Chine
Local time: 05:24
Membre (2011)
chinois vers anglais
| | Problem with "first language" is it sounds like there can only be one | Jun 28, 2012 |
Some people have two (or more) native languages, and we'd like them to be able to declare them all.
I also think that it's fundamentally wrong do suggest we have to define anyone's language proficiency as being near-native. If you're not near-native, you have no business working with this language in the first place. I don't mean you have to have a flawless accent, but you have to have very powerful reading/analytical skills in the language for it to be a source - superior, in fact, to the level achieved by most native speakers.
Just by putting a language on your profile on a professional translators website, you are saying "I'm pretty damn proficient in this language." If you offer to translate into language X, you are saying I'm a good enough writer in X to produce professional-looking material. There is absolutely no need to add another layer to this.
The native label means something else. It means your professional skills - assumed for all your languages - plus that bit of extra sensitivity, versatility and tonal control that comes with a childhood language.
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| | | | Samuel Murray
Pays-Bas
Local time: 23:24
Membre (2006)
anglais vers afrikaans
+ ...
| | Setting the bar high for yourself and for others | Jun 28, 2012 |
Phil Hand wrote:
If you're not near-native, you have no business working with this language in the first place. ... (1) Just by putting a language on your profile on a professional translators website, you are saying "I'm pretty [darn] proficient in this language." (2) If you offer to translate into language X, you are saying I'm a good enough writer in X to produce professional-looking material. |
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I think you're setting the bar much higher than most people do. I disagree with your statement #1 but I fully agree with your statement #2.
| The problem with "first language" is it sounds like there can only be one. Some people have two (or more) native languages, and we'd like them to be able to declare them all. |
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1. That is a minor problem. The terms "first language", "second language" and "foreign language" are well-defined in linguistics. Besides, if ProZ.com's profile settings page allows more than one first language to be added, people who have two first languages but didn't study linguistics will still be likely to add both.
In fact, I find it a deficiency that ProZ.com allows us to declare our first languages but not our second languages (and by "first" and "second" I don't mean "best" and "second-best" but that which the terms are defined as in linguistics). If I were to hire a translator, I think would like to know if his source language skills are at first language, second language or foreign language level.
2. The problem of what "native language" is called in multiple languages is a far bigger problem than the problem that some might think that "first language" means "there can be only one". If Spanish or Dutch or Chinese translators fill in their profiles and the label that is translated as "native language" in English does not say "native language" to them, then no-one knows what is being declared, and no-one can tell how one might be able to verify it.
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