| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Multidimensional Blue Board score Thread poster: ..... (X)
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Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 12:16
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| @Robert, @Lingua and @Mirko | Sep 10, 2016 |
Robert Forstag wrote:
Another improvement would be requiring raters to indicate how many projects they have done for the rated agency (and allowing modification of comments to reflect changes in experience over time).
I agree that in theory that would likely often be very relevant. Or perhaps not the number of projects, but the total value of those projects over the past year. I'm not sure how practical such a criterion would be, however. For example, for one I do 2 or 3 jobs per day, almost every day of the year, but the total size of those jobs may be less than 200 words per day. For other agencies, I may only do about 1 job per year, but then it's in the range of 2000-5000 words.
If I'm not mistaken, you are asked (when submitting a rating) for how long you have been working for the agency, but this information is not revealed on the BB itself.
Lingua 5B wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
And for questions like "Do they pay on time" or "Are they a friendly bunch of people", there is the BB. You can also ask them those two questions directly, then BB is totally irrelevant?
Some questions relate to things that will happen in future (e.g. payment on time), and it's better to have a second opinion about those than just the agency's word. Other questions relate to things that are current, such as the rate that they offer. After all, the rate is negotiated *before* you start the job, so you can be sure that that is the rate before you start the job. You can't be sure about whether payment is on time.
Mirko Mainardi wrote:
That's the point (or it should be the point...), including avoid wasting time unnecessarily doing tests, reading/signing endless/obscure NDAs/SLAs and negotiating, only to discover it would've been much better (and less stressful) if you went out fishing or picking flowers that day.
I don't think the purpose of the BB is to help lazy freelancers discover which agencies have tedious start-up procedures. All of the things that you mention, can be asked in the initial reply to the agency. If the PM then replies but does not answer all the questions, simply repeat the questions courteously.
[Edited at 2016-09-10 18:18 GMT]
| | | | | Anonymous? Totally disagree | Sep 10, 2016 |
Preston Decker wrote:
The most useful feature you could add to the BB would be the ability for translators to provide ratings anonymously. Would be fairly simple to implement--you could simply allow any paying Proz member to make anonymous ratings, with companies' BB ratings to show 'Rating made anonymously by full Proz member' for such entries.
I completely disagree with anonymous postings. When I check some outsourcer's Blue Board records, I want to know that the low scores mean a firm decision by someone who puts his/her business with the outsourcer at stake (or completely discontinues such business). When we are positive about some decision, we do not hesitate to show our name alongside. We are not children anymore who need to hide behind some "anonymous" label on the Internet.
More importantly, as an occasional outsourcer, I also want to know who and why posted a low score, if only to solve the matter.
| | | | Ilan Rubin (X)
Russian Federation
Local time: 13:16
Russian to English
| I like it as it is | Sep 10, 2016 |
It is crisp and to the point. Very useful.
I disagree with the suggestion about indicating those paying "low rates". The rates are not an insight - the translator discusses them with the client.
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Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote: Preston Decker wrote:
The most useful feature you could add to the BB would be the ability for translators to provide ratings anonymously. Would be fairly simple to implement--you could simply allow any paying Proz member to make anonymous ratings, with companies' BB ratings to show 'Rating made anonymously by full Proz member' for such entries. I completely disagree with anonymous postings. When I check some outsourcer's Blue Board records, I want to know that the low scores mean a firm decision by someone who puts his/her business with the outsourcer at stake (or completely discontinues such business). When we are positive about some decision, we do not hesitate to show our name alongside. We are not children anymore who need to hide behind some "anonymous" label on the Internet. More importantly, as an occasional outsourcer, I also want to know who and why posted a low score, if only to solve the matter.
I'd be all for the Blueboard being kept as an internal benefit, with access restricted to paying freelance translators only, not agencies (and I'd let people like you and I who outsource on occasion in as well). If that was the case, then I'd be all for real name posting. But that's not the case, and fear of reprisal from agencies keeps most pertinent posts off the Blueboard and has resulted in an extraordinary amount of 'grade inflation'. I literally feel 50% better about an agency with a 4.8 rating than one with a 4.6, which is patently ridiculous. Anonymous posting would solve this problem. If we had an anonymous posting system I for one would start posting regularly on the Blueboard, both with posts praising the many good agencies I work with, and with critiques of the handful that aren't so good. And best of all, I'd give out 2s, 3s and 4s, rather than just 5s and 1s (at present giving out a 4 is actually quite harmful to most agencies, which again is completely ridiculous).
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| That's the theory... | Sep 10, 2016 |
ILAN RUBIN wrote:
It is crisp and to the point. Very useful.
I disagree with the suggestion about indicating those paying "low rates". The rates are not an insight - the translator discusses them with the client.
... then there are those who go like "we offer X in your pair, take it or leave it", which is particularly annoying after you jumped through all their hoops (and even told them your rates from the beginning...).
So, what's so negative about translators scoring outsourcers against rates (possibly based on community rates)? How would that damage you as a translator?
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 12:16
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| I would like to know the rate overview... | Sep 10, 2016 |
... before even sending the first message to a client. Also, the same applies to whether they will possibly ask for free tests. If I knew the rate was below acceptable level and a free test would be required, the first message would not occur at all, from my side.
It would save a lot of my time, but also the client's time. What's wrong with wanting to keep efficient time management, time is a big resource?
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Lingua 5B wrote:
... before even sending the first message to a client. Also, the same applies to whether they will possibly ask for free tests. If I knew the rate was below acceptable level and a free test would be required, the first message would not occur at all, from my side.
It would save a lot of my time, but also the client's time. What's wrong with wanting to keep efficient time management, time is a big resource?
That's the point. I really can't see what's wrong with it, nor why other translators are so opposed to the very notion of it... (unless they are outsources as well)
| | | | | The OP's note notwithstanding,... | Sep 10, 2016 |
... I'd like to make another couple of suggestions.
1) Include a "report broken link" button. I wouldn't be surprised if at least 30% of the companies on the BB no longer exist. That is the impression I have got from using it as a source of potential agencies to work with -and that's with restricting the search to those with a rating of 4.8 or higher.
2) Get rid of all ratings more than a certain number of years old (5, 10, whatever). What is the benefit of such ratings... See more ... I'd like to make another couple of suggestions.
1) Include a "report broken link" button. I wouldn't be surprised if at least 30% of the companies on the BB no longer exist. That is the impression I have got from using it as a source of potential agencies to work with -and that's with restricting the search to those with a rating of 4.8 or higher.
2) Get rid of all ratings more than a certain number of years old (5, 10, whatever). What is the benefit of such ratings, which give little indication of the agencies' current practices? I recently read one posted in something like 2003 by a translator commenting on their time working for the agency back in the 1990s! (Yes, I know there's the "last 12 months" option, but that often gives very few results.)
[Edited at 2016-09-10 23:30 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| Wait a sec... | Sep 10, 2016 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Mirko Mainardi wrote:
That's the point (or it should be the point...), including avoid wasting time unnecessarily doing tests, reading/signing endless/obscure NDAs/SLAs and negotiating, only to discover it would've been much better (and less stressful) if you went out fishing or picking flowers that day. I don't think the purpose of the BB is to help lazy freelancers discover which agencies have tedious start-up procedures. All of the things that you mention, can be asked in the initial reply to the agency. If the PM then replies but does not answer all the questions, simply repeat the questions courteously. [Edited at 2016-09-10 18:18 GMT]
Firstly, since this is a thread about possible changes to the BB, I think the "purpose of the BB" itself is up for debate, and, at any rate, in my opinion the "purpose of the BB" should be to help translators in their interactions with outsourcers, so I don't see how these suggestions would go against that purpose or our interests as translators...
Secondly, for some reason you talk about "lazy freelancers"(?), while I think of it as simply avoiding utter wastes of time following outsourcers' instructions and procedures, only to discover they "offer" peanuts and/or enforce ridiculous terms.
In other words, I'd rather avoid losing time taking and passing tests, reading up and signing abstruse NDAs and negotiating rates, only to discover the "offered" rate is something like €0.05 or that they could ask me to pay them damages if I failed to meet a deadline or if they decided that my translation contained errors of some sort... You call that being "lazy"(?). I call it avoiding lowballers, cheapskates and control freaks.
Why are you opposed to it? How would that damage you?
Also, the original message you wrote, that I replied to, said "What rates do they charge? Ask the client directly. What is their payment terms? Ask the client directly. How bad is their NDA? Ask the client directly. Is the deadline unrealistic? Tell the client directly. And for questions like "Do they pay on time" or "Are they a friendly bunch of people", there is the BB."
I wrote that is not viable, nor realistic. In my experience, many clients won't discuss rates with you unless you have passed a test and signed an NDA. And I think it would be utterly futile (and also childish, IMO) to ask someone who drafted a 15 pages contract full of legalese whether that contract is "bad" or "good"...
So, again, what's so wrong in hearing other translators' opinions about such matters?
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Alistair Gainey wrote:
2) Get rid of all ratings more than a certain number of years old (5, 10, whatever). What is the benefit of such ratings, which give little indication of the agencies' current practices? I recently read one posted in something like 2003 by a translator commenting on their time working for the agency back in the 1990s! (Yes, I know there's the "last 12 months" option, but that often gives very few results.)
[Edited at 2016-09-10 23:30 GMT]
I was thinking about that too, would be a nice improvement.
| | | | | Still against anonymous | Sep 11, 2016 |
Preston Decker wrote:
...and fear of reprisal from agencies keeps most pertinent posts off the Blueboard and has resulted in an extraordinary amount of 'grade inflation'. I literally feel 50% better about an agency with a 4.8 rating than one with a 4.6, which is patently ridiculous. Anonymous posting would solve this problem.
I see what you mean, but I do not think it is fair to let people grade you anonymously without the opportunity to know what went wrong. Bad outsourcers do not care at all about what their suppliers think, but I am sure most outsourcers would like to know what went wrong so that they could fix it.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:16
Member (2008)
Italian to English
I don't think the innovations proposed will add anything to the Blue Board. Probably just more "5"s.
[Edited at 2016-09-11 07:35 GMT]
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 12:16
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| @Mirko (and @Lingua) | Sep 11, 2016 |
Mirko Mainardi wrote:
... then there are those who go like "we offer X in your pair, take it or leave it", which is particularly annoying after you jumped through all their hoops (and even told them your rates from the beginning...).
This is where beginners need to learn not to make mistakes twice.
If, after you've told the PM your rate, the PM does not mention your rate in his reply to the tune of "we accept your rate of X" or "your rate is a too high, but how about Y instead", then you should press the issue immediately. It's an old, regular trick by both PMs and translators to silently ignore elements of the other party's negotiation in the hope that it will be forgotten or will become less important once the other elements have been cleared.
The same goes for non-90 day payment terms. If you said payment is to be made within X number of days, and the PM does not acknowledge that in his very next e-mail, tell him again, before embarking on all kinds of time-consuming start-up activities.
Mirko Mainardi wrote:
Firstly, since this is a thread about possible changes to the BB, I think the "purpose of the BB" itself is up for debate...
It did not even occur to me to think that the purpose of the BB itself was up to debate. This thread is about improving the BB, not changing is purpose.
In other words, I'd rather avoid losing time taking and passing tests, reading up and signing abstruse NDAs and negotiating rates, only to discover the "offered" rate is something like €0.05 or that they could ask me to pay... In my experience, many clients won't discuss rates with you unless you have passed a test and signed an NDA.
If an agency neglects to confirm my rate, and when pressed about it tells me that they'll discuss the rate only after X or Y steps have been taken, then that's a red flag that their rate is very likely going to be quite low.
Yes, I know that some agencies do that. I know that some PMs use the excuse that their rate is "confidential information" and that they can only reveal it after you've signed their agreements, and I understand that these poor PMs often have no say in the matter because it is their agency's policy. But when that happens, and the agency does not have a very, very good reputation on e.g. the BB, then I simply stop communicating.
So, again, what's so wrong in hearing other translators' opinions about such matters?
Whether or not the offered rate is within X percent of the community rate, or whether or not there is a free test, is not a matter of opinion.
==
Lingua 5B wrote:
I would like to know the rate overview before even sending the first message to a client. Also, the same applies to whether they will possibly ask for free tests.
I don't think the purpose of the BB is to reduce the amount of work required by the freelancer when scouting out an agency. For different translators, different things will be important when they do that. The BB's value is in giving insight into the reliability of the agency, which is something you can't find out yourself.
As for the rate overview or whether there would be a free test, well, you can write a template e-mail with those questions that matter to you specifically, that takes just a few seconds to copy/paste and send.
[Edited at 2016-09-11 08:31 GMT]
[Edited at 2016-09-11 08:46 GMT]
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 12:16
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Your calculation is out of place.
I am a busy freelancer, the agency PM is also busy. I type a lot on daily basis, so if I have an opportunity to be informed while avoiding additional typing, it would be nice. I can't afford any PAs. I may receive a reply from PM to my question in 7-10 days (because that one will not be a priority for them to reply), so it will not be a few seconds but it may turn into weeks. During these weeks I want to make informed decisions ASAP, because there a... See more Your calculation is out of place.
I am a busy freelancer, the agency PM is also busy. I type a lot on daily basis, so if I have an opportunity to be informed while avoiding additional typing, it would be nice. I can't afford any PAs. I may receive a reply from PM to my question in 7-10 days (because that one will not be a priority for them to reply), so it will not be a few seconds but it may turn into weeks. During these weeks I want to make informed decisions ASAP, because there are other clients waiting too.
You are trying to provide a simple solution, while in fact complicate things even further.
[Edited at 2016-09-11 12:22 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Norskpro
Norway
Local time: 12:16
Member
English to Norwegian
+ ...
| No need for change | Sep 11, 2016 |
No need to complicate things. In addition to the Blue Board score, there is a comment field for any complaints one may have about the outsourcer.
[Edited at 2016-09-11 11:25 GMT]
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