| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Enough is enough Thread poster: Nikki Scott-Despaigne
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| job postings, direct clients and agencies | Aug 14, 2015 |
Some translators work just with agencies or just with direct clients. Others have a mix. We all need clients though. There are good and bad agencies and good and bad direct clients and everything in between. If you have a good working relationship with a couple of agencies and/or direct clients, you can have regular income. That is not a bad thing.
I have just direct clients. It is in the nature of the work that I do. I cannot afford to work at a loss. Like many of us, I have a fami... See more Some translators work just with agencies or just with direct clients. Others have a mix. We all need clients though. There are good and bad agencies and good and bad direct clients and everything in between. If you have a good working relationship with a couple of agencies and/or direct clients, you can have regular income. That is not a bad thing.
I have just direct clients. It is in the nature of the work that I do. I cannot afford to work at a loss. Like many of us, I have a family to keep going so I have to make sure a certain amount of money comes in every month. More is cool of course. There is a necessary minimum and I can get that. I cannot live on a client's promise. I can live on being quite simply paid for the work I do. And paid on time. I value honesty in my working relationships as well as elsewhere. I aim to ensure that a client who asks for a good job to be done at a good price gets just that from me. I will work hard to achieve that in each job. As self-employed individuals, in some ways, we are always looking for a job!
When one pays, it is nice to pay less. When one is being paid, it's nicer to be paid more. It is quite possible to reconcile the two. If someone expects to pay half the going rate for the country where he is, he should expect to hear in reply : "Sure. I'll do your job for you... half as well."
[Edited at 2015-08-14 05:27 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Globalisation | Aug 14, 2015 |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne wrote:
...for the country where he is...
I expect to get paid for the quality I deliver, not for where I live.
Cheers,
Hans
| | | | | it could be a generation thing | Aug 14, 2015 |
I tend to agree with Nikki and to share her despair over the site. As an idealist, I had hoped it would be a venue for serious seasoned professionals and aspiring intelligent newbies to meet and exchange over real translation problems.
The dumbing down over the years is evident.
As someone with only direct clients, the site is just a playground where I can fiddle around while my brain latches on to that elusive term, or while I'm drinking one of my interminable cups of coffee.
... See more I tend to agree with Nikki and to share her despair over the site. As an idealist, I had hoped it would be a venue for serious seasoned professionals and aspiring intelligent newbies to meet and exchange over real translation problems.
The dumbing down over the years is evident.
As someone with only direct clients, the site is just a playground where I can fiddle around while my brain latches on to that elusive term, or while I'm drinking one of my interminable cups of coffee.
I have never and will never bid for a job. At times, despite having made it clear in my profile that I am not open to offers, I receive crowdsourcing emails. At times I even bother to write back and remind the authors that they have ignored my request.
Like Nikki, I see things getting progressively worse but I will not comment on the CAT tool part of her postings in that I do mostly creative work and CAT tools are of little or no help. I used to follow the questions in the hope of picking up tips or ideas, since nobody can know everything. I now see that the questions come in rafts and that some translators take on jobs they are not competent to do in the knowledge that their safety net is in place (although it is often more the blind leading the blind, not that they would realise that). Now I pick and choose to an increasing extent. Before long, there will be so many people flagged up to be ignored that I will have run out of "clients".
That's fine by me.
What a pity that the site chose income over standards even though the two could have been compatible. ▲ Collapse
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Meta Arkadia wrote: Nikki Scott-Despaigne wrote:
...for the country where he is... I expect to get paid for the quality I deliver, not for where I live. Cheers, Hans
So do I, Hans. Again, that is why I make certain choices.
The combination of some of my specific skills and experience makes me quite useful in some countries. So I track down my clients in those places and get work that way.
It is a reality that what is standard in one place is out of reach for clients elsewhere.
[Edited at 2015-08-14 13:46 GMT]
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| | Trisha F 
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:22
English to Spanish
+ ...
| Some benefits are not direct | Aug 14, 2015 |
I have been a paid member on and off. At the moment I am not. I have not noticed what the difference is as of yet. There must be some added value but I have not perceived it so far, which is why I am not exactly dying to get a membership again. It must be that, whenever I was a paying member, I failed to take advantage of what I had. I may have wasted the potential perks of the membership, I do not know.
Having said that, I do owe Proz, in one way or another, a big portion of my pre... See more I have been a paid member on and off. At the moment I am not. I have not noticed what the difference is as of yet. There must be some added value but I have not perceived it so far, which is why I am not exactly dying to get a membership again. It must be that, whenever I was a paying member, I failed to take advantage of what I had. I may have wasted the potential perks of the membership, I do not know.
Having said that, I do owe Proz, in one way or another, a big portion of my present income. I have been directly contacted by agencies that have given me work from time to time and I found my most important source of income through the Blue Board. I approached the latter, yes, but the info was on Proz. So, I did not get anything from the job board but I still managed to make money with the resources and exposure Proz offers. Mind you, every time I have found work opportunities thanks to this site, I happened not to be a paying member. I do not always get work from direct clients but, looking back, I think Proz was rather helpful in my first endeavours as a freelancer.
I agree the job board is not ideal and that it is not really designed for qualified people. I would understand this if I was on one of them general job sites for freelancers but indeed I would expect a lot more from a translation website. I think that, although Proz is a good resource, they might be a bit misleading in their membership advertising, mainly because it seems to imply that Proz will boost your workload and it is not necessarily the case, at least not in the direct way people may expect. Proz IS a great resource but it may take a long time to somehow get any work from it. I gave up on it a few times, actually, then came back and gave it another shot. I guess many people may assume that the work comes mainly from the job board, I did that initially. I sometimes wonder if anyone's ever won a bid there but nowadays I frankly forget it even exists.
Overall, I am not a keen Proz user but I acknowledge the fact it has helped me. It was not in the direct, immediate manner the advertsing suggests though.
[Edited at 2015-08-14 18:12 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Nikki Scott-Despaigne wrote:
I’m only interested in good new clients. I used to think I couldn’t afford to choose. I now know I can’t afford not to!
Exactly!!
Nikki Scott-Despaigne wrote:
All I can say is that rates for the “open” jobs, always at less than 40% of the get-out-of-bed rate are simply not serious offers for serious translators where I am based. They are generally not the sort of client I can afford.
Again, couldn't agree more. While I am all for a "free market", and have a reasonable grasp of market forces, offering rates of €0,03-€0,04 per word for jobs in major European languages is insulting. I know, I know... we as translators set our own rates. But when it comes down to it, this is the budget set for many of these jobs. Where do clients/agencies think most translators working in these language pairs live?
What's MORE insulting is that ProZ perpetually refuses to introduce any kind of policy whatsoever to protect the dignity of translators when it comes to the Jobs Board.
I know this question of rates, and the fact we are free to accept or refuse them, has been debated ad nauseam here on the forums. Sadly the low rates we see every day here are a reflection of the direction the site has taken. The fact that ProZ is the first site most think of when it comes to "translation workplaces" makes this all the more worrying.
[Edited at 2015-08-14 16:01 GMT]
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:22
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| Opportunity knocks? | Aug 14, 2015 |
Fiona Peterson wrote:
The fact that ProZ is the first site most think of when it comes to "translation workplaces" makes this all the more worrying.
Perhaps there's an opportunity there.
Regards
Dan
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| Low rates on Proz. Everyone is jumping on the bandwagon | Aug 14, 2015 |
This week, the owner of translation agency posted a job as a direct client, asking for a translation of his company documents (statutes as he called them) into English.
The company is based in a European country.
The rate: US$0.02-0.04/word.
6 people actually bid. This isn't the first time I've seen direct clients post jobs on Proz "offering" disgustingly low rates. Everybody has got the hint where to find people willing to work for peanuts. Them R Us.
I agree w... See more This week, the owner of translation agency posted a job as a direct client, asking for a translation of his company documents (statutes as he called them) into English.
The company is based in a European country.
The rate: US$0.02-0.04/word.
6 people actually bid. This isn't the first time I've seen direct clients post jobs on Proz "offering" disgustingly low rates. Everybody has got the hint where to find people willing to work for peanuts. Them R Us.
I agree with polyglot and others who regret the downward spiral of the site as a professional venue. It really would be great if somehow profitability could be maintained without sacrificing professionalism.
[Edited at 2015-08-14 17:37 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Lower, lower, lower | Aug 14, 2015 |
writeaway wrote:
This week, the owner of translation agency posted a job as a direct client, asking for a translation of his company documents (statutes as he called them) into English.
The company is based in a European country.
The rate: US$0.02-0.04/word.
6 people actually bid. This isn't the first time I've seen direct clients post jobs on Proz "offering" disgustingly low rates. Everybody has got the hint where to find people willing to work for peanuts. Them R Us.
I agree with polyglot and others who regret the downward spiral of the site as a professional venue. It really would be great if somehow profitability could be maintained without sacrificing professionalism.
[Edited at 2015-08-14 17:37 GMT]
But hey, if you get a job translating 7000 words @ 0.02/word, you already earned back your yearly membership fee. Life's good. (I can hear 'em now.)
In all seriousness, for a professional it's quite obvious where this ship is headed.
[Edited at 2015-08-15 02:56 GMT]
| | | | The Misha
Local time: 16:22
Russian to English
+ ...
| Don't kid yourself | Aug 14, 2015 |
polyglot45 wrote:
What a pity that the site chose income over standards even though the two could have been compatible.
....
It really would be great if somehow profitability could be maintained without sacrificing professionalism.
Everyone chooses income, and those who say they don't are either lying or simply never had a chance of making that income to begin with. Almost everything you see online is funded through advertisement (except for Wikipedia and such that constantly bug users for donations), and ad revenue is mostly based on the number of clicks. If you know how to reconcile that need for numbers with "standards," pray tell. That's the reason every great idea online eventually morphs into a money-making machine - until everyone gets bored or exasperated and moves on to the next big thing. This is nothing but a natural cycle. Hey, stars die too.
What has always puzzled me is why so many tend to treat this place as some kind of a "guardian of the galaxy" or a "community" that "must do this" or "had better do that". It's but a market square - an equivalent of the New York Stock Exchange in our profession, if even that. As a marketplace, they do a minimum of their required due diligence, and if you expect anything beyond that, well, you are simply misguided.
To be sure, since the time I came here years ago, the place has grown quite dull. KudoZ questions are asked rather infrequently and for the most part by the same stable cohort of lame ducks (I am speaking based on my own experience in my primary pair; feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong). As a result, almost no one who has any real expertise to offer bothers answering anymore. Topics discussed are for the most part either a CAT help line for the lazy or a rehash of the tired old stuff. Quite a few users have already moved on and went to Facebook, LinkedIn or wherever, I wouldn't know. This is all normal, folks. These are all but stages of the life cycle. That said, the place still has its uses (what would you rather do instead - watch Desperate Housewives?). You just need to keep your expectations in check.
| | | | | Suggestions for improvement? | Aug 14, 2015 |
Well, it looks a number of us find being on ProZ useful in ways we describe as indirect. That's a positive.
As for the jobs section, there are more negative criticisms than positive ones.
It would be nice to have some ideas about ways it can be improved. I admit to being at a loss on that one.
ProZ has never held itself out to act as a job agency. I can understand that.
The jobs section is a virtual noticeboard and I think that's that.
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| Set a minimum rate for each language pair | Aug 15, 2015 |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne wrote:
It would be nice to have some ideas about ways it can be improved.
I believe ProZ should set minimum rates for each language pair, below which jobs cannot be posted. These rates could be agreed by site users, in collaboration with professional translation associations. It would be a bold move, one which would break with tradition and certainly cause friction, especially with those who believe in a "free market". ProZ would lose customers, but it would gain a different type of client and perhaps regain that credibility it has lost over the past years, among its users first and foremost. How many have abandoned the site due to the policies of the Jobs Board?
A "free market". What does that actually mean in concrete terms? A licence for bottom feeders to continue to pay peanuts. Why should those in lower income countries earn less for their translation work? Living costs are lower, but I don't see that as a justification for earning less. A thousand words take the same effort to translate, whether you live in Marseilles or Mumbai.
The fact that ours is an "unregulated profession" should not prevent us from regulating it ourselves from within.
| | | | matt robinson
Spain
Local time: 22:22
Member (2010)
Spanish to English
| Contacts and information | Aug 15, 2015 |
Whenever I read comments bemoaning the job posting system on Pro, I always ask myself what these freelancers expect. There is no industry where you sign up to some list/agency/website and are suddenly bombarded with work offers at the top market rate. You have to put in the time and effort, and if you are good enough then in time the work will come in.
ProZ cannot cut out this part of the process. Use ProZ for its strengths, which in my opinion are its term and agency databases, and access... See more Whenever I read comments bemoaning the job posting system on Pro, I always ask myself what these freelancers expect. There is no industry where you sign up to some list/agency/website and are suddenly bombarded with work offers at the top market rate. You have to put in the time and effort, and if you are good enough then in time the work will come in.
ProZ cannot cut out this part of the process. Use ProZ for its strengths, which in my opinion are its term and agency databases, and access to fellow translators.
I imagine ProZ keeps the jobs posting system to attract new paying members, because many people are looking for a way in or a wider net, but it can be largely ignored and does not detract in any way from the usefulness of the site. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 13:22
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
| Price fixing | Aug 15, 2015 |
Fiona Peterson wrote:
I believe ProZ should set minimum rates for each language pair, below which jobs cannot be posted.
The fact that ours is an "unregulated profession" should not prevent us from regulating it ourselves from within.
I believe this is illegal.
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