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Don't allow asker to select an answer which has not received any agrees or any comments at all
Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
Fiona Grace Peterson
Fiona Grace Peterson  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 16:47
Italian to English
The way I see it Jan 5, 2015

and the way I think many other site users see it too, is that agrees are used to help askers distinguish between different answers. Often if I see an answer given by an answerer I know is knowledgeable, i will not even stop to post an agree, because I think it is superfluous, and not how the system was intended to be used.


Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

without agrees, there's no guarantee of any kind of how accurate or useful the answer is


By your logic, agrees are more valuable than the answers themselves. Why should that be? Anyone can "agree" with an answer, and simply doing so does not qualify them as an expert. And as I've said above, I don't think that is how many users perceive the system to work. Your logic simply does not hold water.

[Edited at 2015-01-05 14:58 GMT]


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:47
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Agree Jan 5, 2015

There is no such thing as an "agree".

 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 11:47
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
0 agrees = no support Jan 5, 2015

Balasubramaniam L. wrote:

The agrees to an answer are also no reflection of the linguistic correctness or superiority of the answer.


The whole point of giving an agree is to give credibility to an answer. That's how the system is set up and I do think that is the best way. The more agrees, the better. My experience is that the agrees I received were given to me because I explained my answer well, gave links and thus people were able to judge its quality.

But no agree is simply what it is - NO agree.

Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
This is because people are afraid that if they put an agree to a competitor's answer, that answer might get selected, either by the asker or by the robot on the basis of maximum agrees an answer has. This might make the answerer move up the kudoz pole and above the person who has agreed to his answer!


Well that's not how I look at the system. I collected my points mostly through answers that received agrees. And I give agrees where agrees are deserved. I don't think about any of the stuff you mentioned above. What I do not like is people collecting points for answers that are not supported by colleagues.

Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
Translators in the English-Hindi kudoz forum have found many other ingenious ways to run down or beat the system. One useful loop-hole in the kudoz rules that is put to devastating use is to mark a pro question into a non-pro question if a competitor's answer looks likely to be selected as the correct answer. This trick is most commonly used by those who are already up in the kudoz pole and want to push off other competitors who are snapping on their heels. If the latter translators answer any question correctly, these questions are immediately flagged as non-pro by the kudoz leaders. The points earned by non-pro questions are not used for translator ranking.


These seem like petty things that have nothing to do with professionalism. Makes you think twice about participating at all.

Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
So there is a lot of politics being played in the kudoz forums (at least in the English to Hindi one) and taking into account the agrees to answers will in no way improve the quality of the kudoz glossary.


I think it's time for me to stop Kudozing.

Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
The only way to improve kudoz is to stop using kudoz points for ranking translators on this site.


That's a different issue. I have no problem with separating KudoZ points from the ranking system.
But I would want KudoZ points to be listed in (or available as an optional feature for) the profiles. Some people might be less eager to answer KudoZ questions, but I wouldn't change my opinion about the selection process for answers as I have outlined it here.


[Edited at 2015-01-05 17:40 GMT]


 
Charlie Bavington
Charlie Bavington  Identity Verified
Local time: 15:47
French to English
Problems and solutions Jan 5, 2015

The problem seems to be:

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
...the simple copying (= very similar answer) of other people's answers ...[that are chosen] ... before any other colleagues have commented on it.
[and]
someone else comes along, enters something very similar and gets the points.


Your solution, while no doubt solving this problem, causes others.

As many have said, often an answer with no agrees is the right one, not least because the asker says so and that's the rule, but also because it is possible for all the usual "agreers" to be mistaken, for the answer to be so obviously right to the asker there is no need to keep a question open & waste people's time, for the real subject expert to pop up after all the amateurs have had a go, and so on.

To solve the problem as expressed, I would think some kind of fuzzy matching algorithm would be one solution, with the page rejecting answers that are, say 80% matches for a previous answer. But as nothing will ever change on kudoz (and people will always find a way round automated obstacles - see also the perennial debate on "abuse") , I would suggest reporting the perceived offence to moderators is probably the way to go.
Happy New Year.


[Edited at 2015-01-05 15:18 GMT]


 
Enrique Cavalitto
Enrique Cavalitto  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 12:47
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
Askers have the right to select the answers they consider most useful Jan 5, 2015

Fiona Peterson wrote:

and the way I think many other site users see it too, is that agrees are used to help askers distinguish between different answers. Often if I see an answer given by an answerer I know is knowledgeable, i will not even stop to post an agree, because I think it is superfluous, and not how the system was intended to be used.


Thanks Fiona!

The main purpose of KudoZ is providing help to the askers.
Agrees are meant to help the askers decide, but askers have the right to select the answers they consider most useful.
Agrees are optional, not required, and the asker's selection of the most helpful answer is in no way conditioned by the peer comments received by any of the answers.
Regards,
Enrique


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 11:47
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Answer + agree are important to me Jan 5, 2015

Fiona Peterson wrote:

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

without agrees, there's no guarantee of any kind of how accurate or useful the answer is


By your logic, agrees are more valuable than the answers themselves. Why should that be? Anyone can "agree" with an answer, and simply doing so does not qualify them as an expert. And as I've said above, I don't think that is how many users perceive the system to work. Your logic simply does not hold water.

[Edited at 2015-01-05 14:58 GMT]


By my logic, agrees are given to answers, so two things are necessary: an answer that includes good explanations (that's even encouraged when you answer) and references (links). Those should be there to start with.
Someone flying by and putting in a suggestion without saying anything else might work for easy terms, but more complex questions should include what I said above. Then colleagues will be able to judge much better how good an answer is. Now we need an agree. I've seen answers where people did write explanations and posted links and none of it made sense (to me and others). Without an agree, the asker might just use that answer, award points and then it's in the glossary. Nope, can't support that.

So, yes, agrees are very valuable to me, but you have to have an answer to give an agree.
When you say anyone can agree to an answer that's right. You won't be able to change that. And that's fine with me. My own experience is that I most often received agrees from colleagues who knew what they were doing. But don't leave it up to the asker to pick an answer with no agrees, award points, AND put it in the glossary. If the asker wants to use the answer, that's fine. No one is holding them back. But then have the answer closed without points.



[Edited at 2015-01-05 15:31 GMT]


 
Thomas Pfann
Thomas Pfann  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:47
Member (2006)
English to German
+ ...
Have some trust in professionals Jan 5, 2015

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

I've seen answers where people did write explanations and posted links and none of it made sense (to me and others). Without an agree, the asker might just use that answer, award points and then it's in the glossary. Nope, can't support that.



I can't support this either. But this very answer doesn't get any better if a few people express their agreement with it, does it? You also have to have some trust in the asker who, after all, is a professional and should be in a position to judge how good and how helpful an answer is.

In fact, both answerer and asker are professionals and should know what they are talking about so if those two agree on an answer why is that not enough for you? Why do you need a third or fourth person to agree? Why would you want to set up some automated algorithm to overrule the opinion of two professionals?


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 11:47
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks for clarifying Jan 5, 2015

Enrique Cavalitto wrote:

Fiona Peterson wrote:

and the way I think many other site users see it too, is that agrees are used to help askers distinguish between different answers. Often if I see an answer given by an answerer I know is knowledgeable, i will not even stop to post an agree, because I think it is superfluous, and not how the system was intended to be used.


Thanks Fiona!

The main purpose of KudoZ is providing help to the askers.
Agrees are meant to help the askers decide, but askers have the right to select the answers they consider most useful.
Agrees are optional, not required, and the asker's selection of the most helpful answer is in no way conditioned by the peer comments received by any of the answers.
Regards,
Enrique


Hi Enrique,

Now, I understand much better that the glossary is not to be taken as a guarantee for accuracy and never will.
But I still have a problem with people cruising through KudoZ to get points, often by simply copying other people's work and changing it a bit. Or askers who have no idea in the first place what the right answer is (cause they were the ones who asked) and getting to select whatever they "feel" is "useful." How "useful" is something that's not supported by anyone? I guess it's all up to the asker. But I think I understand the whole system better now. It helps to generate points and with it traffic.

Anyway, I don't have to participate.

[Edited at 2015-01-05 15:48 GMT]

[Edited at 2015-01-05 15:58 GMT]


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 11:47
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Constructive criticism, thank you. Jan 5, 2015

Charlie Bavington wrote:

The problem seems to be:

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
...the simple copying (= very similar answer) of other people's answers ...[that are chosen] ... before any other colleagues have commented on it.
[and]
someone else comes along, enters something very similar and gets the points.


Your solution, while no doubt solving this problem, causes others.

As many have said, often an answer with no agrees is the right one, not least because the asker says so and that's the rule, but also because it is possible for all the usual "agreers" to be mistaken, for the answer to be so obviously right to the asker there is no need to keep a question open & waste people's time, for the real subject expert to pop up after all the amateurs have had a go, and so on.


Thanks for your comments. Yeah, you're right. I just would still prefer some form of validation to no validation. And I don't support the "the asker is always right" of the system.

Charlie Bavington wrote:
To solve the problem as expressed, I would think some kind of fuzzy matching algorithm would be one solution, with the page rejecting answers that are, say 80% matches for a previous answer. But as nothing will ever change on kudoz (and people will always find a way round automated obstacles - see also the perennial debate on "abuse") , I would suggest reporting the perceived offence to moderators is probably the way to go.
Happy New Year.

Thanks, that's good advice.
Happy New Year to you too!
B


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 11:47
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Couple of thoughts Jan 5, 2015

Thomas Pfann wrote:

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

I've seen answers where people did write explanations and posted links and none of it made sense (to me and others). Without an agree, the asker might just use that answer, award points and then it's in the glossary. Nope, can't support that.



I can't support this either. But this very answer doesn't get any better if a few people express their agreement with it, does it? You also have to have some trust in the asker who, after all, is a professional and should be in a position to judge how good and how helpful an answer is.

In fact, both answerer and asker are professionals and should know what they are talking about so if those two agree on an answer why is that not enough for you? Why do you need a third or fourth person to agree? Why would you want to set up some automated algorithm to overrule the opinion of two professionals?


Hi Thomas,
Thanks for your input.
Although one or two agrees might not necessarily improve an answer or give it an absolute positive value, I always believed that in most cases, an agree (by a professional) means something, it lends credibility to the answer, at least more than no comment. I prefer that to an asker (and often nowadays they are newbies) selecting whatever they feel like is "useful," especially if it is the only answer received without any agrees. And, let's say sometimes, the answerer is a newbie him/herself or even from a different language pair.

I started this thread because of a certain "abuse" issue I experienced. See my initial post. Since I am very doubtful that anything will change with regard to the KudoZ system, I might just be more selective about which questions I choose to answer or decide if I want to participate at all.
HNY!
B

[Edited at 2015-01-05 17:43 GMT]

[Edited at 2015-01-06 03:18 GMT]


 
Lincoln Hui
Lincoln Hui  Identity Verified
Hong Kong
Local time: 23:47
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
I don't know why I waste my time on this Jan 5, 2015

What if no one else ever comments? How is it fair to award points to an answer that has not been supported? To say it didn't get any neutrals or disagrees wouldn't cut if for me either.

The whole point of giving an agree is to give credibility to an answer. That's how the system is set up and I do think that is the best way. The more agrees, the better. My experience is that the agrees I received were given to me because I explained my answer well, gave links and thus people were able to judge their quality.

I would want confirmation and support before I expect my answer to be chosen. And as an asker, I would want confirmation as well.

Why don't we just flat-out have every question be selected by most peer agrees, since peer agrees apparently mean so much and are so valid? It would be a hilarious SHTF situation which I and any self-respecting answerer will be sure to steer well clear of.

By the way, if this was Kudoz, you have seven Disagrees and zero Agrees. What does it say about your credibility, how your "colleagues" judged your quality? Literally everyone has said - even excluding myself - that your idea is counterproductive at best and destructive at worst. Excluding myself, that's six people. But you are plowing along insisting that you are right and everyone else is wrong. How much more confirmation do you need? What gives?


 
writeaway
writeaway  Identity Verified
French to English
+ ...
Askers own their questions Jan 5, 2015

Askers are free to do anything they want to with their questions. They can select any answer they feel like, they can leave the question open, they can let people scramble for points by leaving the grading to others etc. No one is allowed to make the slightest remark as to their choice, the accuracy or glossary suitability of the answer chosen, etc. Those days are long gone and mods come down hard and fast if anyone attempts to say something.
Kudoz has changed from what it once was. Where
... See more
Askers are free to do anything they want to with their questions. They can select any answer they feel like, they can leave the question open, they can let people scramble for points by leaving the grading to others etc. No one is allowed to make the slightest remark as to their choice, the accuracy or glossary suitability of the answer chosen, etc. Those days are long gone and mods come down hard and fast if anyone attempts to say something.
Kudoz has changed from what it once was. Where it used to be for difficult terms, dictionary questions are now the rule, not the exception. People ask because they have no research skills, can't be bothered to look, are in a language and/or a field that is beyond them and so on.
When it was difficult and challenging, everyone benefited and learned as we 'played'. That's all in the past.
Imo you can rant here all you want but it won't change a thing. I suggest lightening up a bit and not taking Kudoz that seriously. It was always a bit of a contest and now it's just a game that is meaningless more often than not. On a couple of the pairs I used to participate in, a few individuals now control the outcome as best they can by being omnipresent and/or calling in their pals to make sure the right people get dissed and that the answers posted by other pals get agrees.
It can be highly amusing and/or irritating but taking it seriously is bad for one's health and is completely pointless.
Collapse


 
Lincoln Hui
Lincoln Hui  Identity Verified
Hong Kong
Local time: 23:47
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
Stuffing things down people's throats Jan 5, 2015

and the way I think many other site users see it too, is that agrees are used to help askers distinguish between different answers. Often if I see an answer given by an answerer I know is knowledgeable, i will not even stop to post an agree, because I think it is superfluous, and not how the system was intended to be used.

Exactly. I give my agrees when there is some ambiguity as to which answer is correct, or if there is only one answer, whether that answer is correct. I don't bother if there's no real ambiguity because it 1. is a waste of my time and 2. worsens the noise to signal ratio, making the agree that much less meaningful in actually validating an answer.

Those who give their Agrees liberally are the ones who really should rethink what they are doing.

======

????

Well, I am sorry it makes no sense to you. It does make sense to everyone else who has participated in this thread.

It doesn't help if someone thinks the answer is correct but doesn't comment.

Is your idea to have people who are neither the asker or the answerer have to waste their time spamming agrees on an obvious answer, just to sustain your system?


f the asker wants to use the answer, that's fine. And thanks to the lonely wolf who showed up and answered the question. But no thanks, I don't think there should be points given or terms entered into the glossary. Who says it's correct? The asker didn't know the answer, that's why he/she asked. He/she shouldn't be the one deciding that it is a valid answer without support by colleagues who agreed on the answer. The answerer might be right but he might be wrong.
What if no one else ever comments? How is it fair to award points to an answer that has not been supported? To say it didn't get any neutrals or disagrees wouldn't cut if for me either.

So let's sum this up: You want to remove all incentives for anyone to answer questions in uncommon language pairs and specialized fields.

Why don't we just do away with points altogether?

I would want confirmation and support before I expect my answer to be chosen. And as an asker, I would want confirmation as well.

Seriously? Are you suggesting that as a language professional, I need other people to confirm my ability to read? Or that I don't know what I'm talking about when I'm answering a question in my field of expertise? Does Stephen Hawking need an Agree from John Doe when answering a question on physics, and what good does John Doe's agreement do?

I don't know if you're in the habit of answering questions that you have no clue to, but I don't. And if you don't answer questions in specialized fields, other people do.

======

Unless one has been living under a rock, the most common Kudoz-related complaint on the forums has been those who don't close questions. This idea thoroughly encourages that, as well as those who regularly close without picking an answer. You are essentially saying, if the answers you received don't have any agrees attached, which is the case in most language pairs, you might as well close it without grading, leave it out to rot, take a dump on it, whatever. Makes no difference anyhow, and nobody is the worse for it because they wouldn't get points anyway.

The Agree has FAR less credibility than an answer because there is absolutely no need to provide support for it. I can easily and single-handedly make a total mess of any peer agreement-only system on Kudoz.

[Edited at 2015-01-05 17:06 GMT]


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 11:47
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Got it Jan 5, 2015

Lincoln Hui wrote:


By the way, if this was Kudoz, you have seven Disagrees and zero Agrees. What does it say about your credibility, how your "colleagues" judged your quality? Literally everyone has said - even excluding myself - that your idea is counterproductive at best and destructive at worst. Excluding myself, that's six people. But you are plowing along insisting that you are right and everyone else is wrong. How much more confirmation do you need? What gives?


Yeah, almost makes me rethink my theory that an answer in KudoZ should only be selected for points if it has gotten agrees.

Thanks for your assessment of my idea: counterproductive at best and destructive at worst.
Nice choice of words.


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 11:47
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
thanks Jan 5, 2015

writeaway wrote:

Imo you can rant here all you want but it won't change a thing. I suggest lightening up a bit and not taking Kudoz that seriously. It was always a bit of a contest and now it's just a game that is meaningless more often than not. On a couple of the pairs I used to participate in, a few individuals now control the outcome as best they can by being omnipresent and/or calling in their pals to make sure the right people get dissed and that the answers posted by other pals get agrees.
It can be highly amusing and/or irritating but taking it seriously is bad for one's health and is completely pointless.



Good advice. I am usually not that serious and was always happy to help out. But it's gotten more irritating than amusing to me lately. As I said above, I'll be more selective about whose questions I answer and don't expect anything in return or I might decide not to participate. There are more pleasant things in life. Thanks for your informative and constructive input, and HNY!


 
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Don't allow asker to select an answer which has not received any agrees or any comments at all






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